I'm so glad the church spares no expense...

[_Mister Scratch]

I see a key distinction between judgementalism and judging righteously (I.e. when the circumstances morally warrant it). To me, judgementalism is a habit or attitude that tends to be an end unto itself (judging people mearly for the sake of judging) or which serves little or no functional purpose--though some may suppose it de-elevates the esteem of others in relation to themselves (an artificial way of making themselves feel better about themselves and somehow seem morally superior); whereas, righteous judgements may well serve useful purposes in elevating all parties concerned (in esteem or otherwise).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, I'm curious, Wade: Does your "Mr. D Theory" fit into the first or second kind of judgmentalism?

[_Mister Scratch]

Hahahaha. I'm cold-hearted because I accept that there are two funds in the Church and that one goes to support the Church and the other takes care of those in need?

No; you're cold hearted because you express "shock" that the LDS Church would offer up charitable funds at all.

I'm a sheep because I don't read financial reports?

No; not because you "don't," but because you said that you wouldn't, even if said reports were actually available. Are you really going to try and tell me that your attitude here is indicative of proactive thinking and healthy skepticism?

I'm gonna drop another bombshell here. I don't read the whole financial reports that come out for the companies I have stock in either.

As usual, you casually insert a qualifier (i.e., "whole") which renders your analogy false. Moreover, there is a big difference between not reading "whole financial reports" vs. not being able to read any financial reports at all, and stating that you wouldn't even if they *were* available. Talk about blind trust!

What's wrong with being a sheep anyways?

Nothing, apparently. I'm glad to see you finally acquiescing to the label. Perhaps you'll cave in to the Internet/Chapel Mormon distinction as well.

[_The Nehor]

Hahahaha. I'm cold-hearted because I accept that there are two funds in the Church and that one goes to support the Church and the other takes care of those in need?

No; you're cold hearted because you express "shock" that the LDS Church would offer up charitable funds at all.

I'm a sheep because I don't read financial reports?

No; not because you "don't," but because you said that you wouldn't, even if said reports were actually available. Are you really going to try and tell me that your attitude here is indicative of proactive thinking and healthy skepticism?

I'm gonna drop another bombshell here. I don't read the whole financial reports that come out for the companies I have stock in either.

As usual, you casually insert a qualifier (I.e., "whole") which renders your analogy false. Moreover, there is a big difference between not reading "whole financial reports" vs. not being able to read any financial reports at all, and stating that you wouldn't even if they *were* available. Talk about blind trust!

What's wrong with being a sheep anyways?

Nothing, apparently. I'm glad to see you finally acquiescing to the label. Perhaps you'll cave in to the Internet/Chapel Mormon distinction as well.

No, I think you misheard me. I was surprised that TITHING funds went to charitable causes. I would be surprised if Fast Offerings did not.

Sorry about the qualifier, remove it and it is still a true statement. I was using whole as an emphasis word but it doesn't carry over well on the Intratubes.

I do trust these people Scratch. I've met some of the people who deal with Tithing. I also have family who work for them.

I acquiesce to the 'sheep' label in the scriptural sense. No, not caving on the Chapel/Internet Mormon thing. I don't see the divide....at all.

EDIT: Sorry, I missed your skepticism comment. No, I don't consider that the policy of a healthy skeptic. In case you haven't noticed Scratch, I'm NOT skeptical of my faith or the Church I am loyal to. I have a healthy skepticism about stuff said here though if that helps. ;)

[_Blixa]

I am just curious whether the critics who have become somewhat exercised over this issue may view themselves as waxing a bit judgemental and/or as having become somewhat of a "busy body" and a gossip?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I'm back late to this thread, but thought I'd borrow Mr. Scratch's succinct manner of reply:

Hi there, Wade. My answer is: No. Instead, I view myself as being an honest critic of boorish taste and crap aesthetics. Instead of a discussion of architecture we are handed a list of how much everything cost and how "exotic" it is to ohh and ahh over. This would be unpleasant in relation to a secular building, but its especially galling in relation to one with alleged spiritual dimensions.

[_Jason Bourne]

I know they build Temples, build and maintain meetinghouses, apportion budgets, pay for the Elder's Quorum Steak and Halo parties, maintain administration at Church HQ, Mission Administration, maintain Universities, buy, invest in, and maintain outside interests that the Brethren believe are necessary. Looking at the numbers people act like they're shocked that more tithing isn't spent on aiding the poor. I was surprised that any was spent. This is what Fast Offerings are for.

(emphasis added)

Screw them, right? It's their own fault? The Church doesn't exist to help anyone?

It certianly makes sense that a large part of tithing goes for operations, building new Churches and so on. It makes sense, given the doctrine of redeeming the dead, that the Church spends on temples too. Having a University makes sense and so on. However, the extent of how much tithing this takes, where the excess goes, how much should be spent making temples really nice and so on we just do not know.

It is not unreasonably for people to want to know. I am surprised more active tithe paying members don't care. And it seems, that a good part of tithing could meet the needs of all these things-goodness the Church has no local clergy to pay-a semi healthy ward with 25% tithe payers is going to bring in about $300,000 per year in tithing-so they can meet these costs and give more away.

So we have a mall. And we are told no tithe dollars were used? So? So give the 2 billion to the poor? Or use it to reduce what a a family has to pay for missionary funds. How about a year of tithing jubilee where members pay 5% instead of 10%?

I am all for other offerings to as members deem necessary. But why can't tithing be used for blessing the poor? Maybe some it? Nobody knows accept the leaders and the Church auditors.

[_Gadianton]

I don't know what the brethren are thinking with their temple building. I have to believe they think it's somehow a materially sound investment. It's not like ordinances for the dead couldn't be performed just as well in temples outside the US which could be rivaled by Charity's Motel 6.

I think it's part of a campaign to equate Mormonism with success. So it is also in Scientology.
By standard measures I think Mormons are pretty successful in pragmatic matters. I'm sure intelligence and artistic abilities reflect distributions over other large groups. Plenty of Mormons have gone to Juilliard and other places where you'd think something interesting would seep into Mormon culture.

LINK

I've linked to this before, but I don't think Kimball's dream will be realized. Most is self-explanatory, I think. There are numerous telling statements like this one,

It has been said that many of the great artists were perverts or moral degenerates. In spite of their immorality they became great and celebrated artists. What could be the result if discovery were made of equal talent in men who were clean and free from the vices, and thus entitled to revelations?

I think the same forces in play that will deny Kimball's dream are the same ones that make Meridian so crappy. I've been reading it more and more lately. Many of the bios are impressive, but the output doesn't reflect it. I actually have a theory that as the spiritual forces increase, there is a Mormon cultural propensity to underachieve.

more on that later.

[_The Nehor]

I know they build Temples, build and maintain meetinghouses, apportion budgets, pay for the Elder's Quorum Steak and Halo parties, maintain administration at Church HQ, Mission Administration, maintain Universities, buy, invest in, and maintain outside interests that the Brethren believe are necessary. Looking at the numbers people act like they're shocked that more tithing isn't spent on aiding the poor. I was surprised that any was spent. This is what Fast Offerings are for.

(emphasis added)

Screw them, right? It's their own fault? The Church doesn't exist to help anyone?

It certianly makes sense that a large part of tithing goes for operations, building new Churches and so on. It makes sense, given the doctrine of redeeming the dead, that the Church spends on temples too. Having a University makes sense and so on. However, the extent of how much tithing this takes, where the excess goes, how much should be spent making temples really nice and so on we just do not know.

It is not unreasonably for people to want to know. I am surprised more active tithe paying members don't care. And it seems, that a good part of tithing could meet the needs of all these things-goodness the Church has no local clergy to pay-a semi healthy ward with 25% tithe payers is going to bring in about $300,000 per year in tithing-so they can meet these costs and give more away.

So we have a mall. And we are told no tithe dollars were used? So? So give the 2 billion to the poor? Or use it to reduce what a a family has to pay for missionary funds. How about a year of tithing jubilee where members pay 5% instead of 10%?

I am all for other offerings to as members deem necessary. But why can't tithing be used for blessing the poor? Maybe some it? Nobody knows accept the leaders and the Church auditors.

World Domination does not come cheap, my friend.

[_Moniker]

I think the same forces in play that will deny Kimball's dream are the same ones that make Meridian so crappy.

Can anyone subscribe to Meridian? I went to their website and didn't see that option anywhere.

I actually have a theory that as the spiritual forces increase, there is a Mormon cultural propensity to underachieve.

What do you mean by "spiritual forces"?

[_Runtu]

I don't care how they spend their money, though I think that someone like me, who has donated tens of thousands of dollars over many years, is certainly entitled to an opinion. What I do find rather funny is that the church drops big bucks on the temples but can't manage to pay for decent upkeep of their meetinghouses (and temples, for that matter). They have to get volunteer crews to do that kind of work. It's not working well with the meetinghouses, and I honestly don't know how well it's going at the temple. I did a shift of cleaning at the Houston Temple a couple of years ago, but I've declined to clean the chapel the last little while. I know, I should be more committed or something.

[_Gadianton]

I think the same forces in play that will deny Kimball's dream are the same ones that make Meridian so crappy.

Can anyone subscribe to Meridian? I went to their website and didn't see that option anywhere.

I actually have a theory that as the spiritual forces increase, there is a Mormon cultural propensity to underachieve.

What do you mean by "spiritual forces"?

I think they are just a website. if not, what a sad waste of trees. That last sentence I wrote made no sense, I had to get up and leave and hurry and crank that out.

What I meant was, that when it comes to applying talent to something related to faith, there is a cultural expectation in Mormonism for something dumbed down and exaggerating in humility. This in addition to the more general point that innovation in a theocracy doesn't make a lot of sense, we won't expect a lot of interesting things coming from members of an organization where the brethren decide the color of the shirt you wear to church on Sunday and so on.