The Handcarts Again..

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_Trinity
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Post by _Trinity »

wenglund wrote:
Trinity wrote:If these handcart treks are such an all-fire, faith-promoting experience, why do they limit it only to the youth? Why do they not extend this opportunity to all members, from infants to old geezers?


Why are you jumping to all these false conclusions?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


On which conclusion was I jumping? I was asking a sincere question. Jason's told me old geezers can go, but I don't think the Melchizedek Priesthood is offered a special invitation to these treks, are they? I seriously want to know.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Trinity wrote:
wenglund wrote:
Trinity wrote:If these handcart treks are such an all-fire, faith-promoting experience, why do they limit it only to the youth? Why do they not extend this opportunity to all members, from infants to old geezers?


Why are you jumping to all these false conclusions?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


On which conclusion was I jumping? I was asking a sincere question. Jason's told me old geezers can go, but I don't think the Melchizedek Priesthood is offered a special invitation to these treks, are they? I seriously want to know.


Wade might have a different answer but this is mine.

1. Trek's are expensive and it is the youth that need these types of developmental experiences.
2. It is harder on older people. When my daughter and her husband went they were late twenties. I can't imagine some of our High Priest group out on such a thing for 3 days.
3. There are experiences open to older people which are just as useful if not more, such as temple service.
4. An infant wouldn't get anything out of it.

Just a few thoughts.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Trinity wrote:If these handcart treks are such an all-fire, faith-promoting experience, why do they limit it only to the youth? Why do they not extend this opportunity to all members, from infants to old geezers?


Old geezers can go.


I've gone as a 20-something.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Trinity wrote:
wenglund wrote:
Trinity wrote:If these handcart treks are such an all-fire, faith-promoting experience, why do they limit it only to the youth? Why do they not extend this opportunity to all members, from infants to old geezers?


Why are you jumping to all these false conclusions?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


On which conclusion was I jumping? I was asking a sincere question. Jason's told me old geezers can go, but I don't think the Melchizedek Priesthood is offered a special invitation to these treks, are they? I seriously want to know.


Please understand the simple, yet clear distinction between "limited to" and "special invitation". Adults of all ages, while perhaps not always having received a "special invite", often participate on the treks--particularly in supervisory capacity--i.e. they are not "limited to" youth. In fact, depending upon the Wards and Stakes, the re-enactments may be offered to families rather than just the youth--though if memory serves me correctly, there may be a minimum age restriction for safety and liability protection in certain cases.

See for example the articles HERE and HERE

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Trinity wrote:If these handcart treks are such an all-fire, faith-promoting experience, why do they limit it only to the youth? Why do they not extend this opportunity to all members, from infants to old geezers?


Old geezers can go.


My in-laws in early 70s, late 60s went.

The problem I have with such events is their underlying purpose: To indoctrinate.

The whole experience is designed to manufacture "spiritual feelings" that participants will be conditioned to associate with "witness of the spirit" that the Mormon Church is "true." That's the ultimate objective.

In the end, it has little to do with really, truly understand what life might have been like back in the days but everything to do with binding the participants closer to the Mormon Church via the manufacture and manipulation of emotions.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_Inconceivable
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Re: The Handcarts Again..

Post by _Inconceivable »

wenglund wrote:
Inconceivable wrote:I don't like what the leaders are attempting to teach my TBM teenagers.


What lesson are you supposing the leaders are attempting to teach your teenagers (not to be confused with the stated lessons you have learned from the handcart experience)?

..Are you concerned that your teenagers will view things the same way you do, in spite of the leaders intents to the contrary?


I mentioned before. Bottom line, they want to bring home that handcarters gave all. We are required to do just a little: Full tithe payer, full time mission, temple recommend (which means full tithe payer), etc. Make the church grow, it makes it just that more true.

My oldest son attended when I was TBM. I had already read about how BY commanded the "saints" to remain in Nauvoo to prepare for the journey rather than chase his advance party down ill-equipted. They didn't listen to him and they died - many of them.

Now, my son learned this by attending without being aware of the above story.

He was put with a "ma'" and "pa" where she was fat and decided that she wouldn't walk. She brought a heavy mattress, extra clothes & all kinds of crap - including her complaining self to be packed onto the cart. She broke all the rules to the burden of her "family". The "pa" was an overzealous taskmaster that expected his little team to keep up with the others. Running with a handcart was a red flag to me. So was the water rationing. This was thoughtless stupidity doing this to my son.

On the third day, my son "ran away" and was adopted by another family and completed the trek. Since that time, you must sign a commitment that you will remain with your assigned family for the duration.

My son is an Eagle scout, I attended nearly every monthly hike/campout because I was in leadership (and I loved being with my quorem kids). We're pretty rugged when we need to be. We live in the desert and we're outdoor people. Small mistakes are big here. And yes, we've done some pretty stupid stuff. The difference is that we have learned not to repeat them.

The church would rather worship ancestors rewriting history and capitalizing on their stupidity (or at least their blind obedience and short sightedness) than teach lessons of true temporal preparedness. At least in this lame case.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

guy sajer wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
Trinity wrote:If these handcart treks are such an all-fire, faith-promoting experience, why do they limit it only to the youth? Why do they not extend this opportunity to all members, from infants to old geezers?


Old geezers can go.


My in-laws in early 70s, late 60s went.

The problem I have with such events is their underlying purpose: To indoctrinate.

The whole experience is designed to manufacture "spiritual feelings" that participants will be conditioned to associate with "witness of the spirit" that the Mormon Church is "true." That's the ultimate objective.

In the end, it has little to do with really, truly understand what life might have been like back in the days but everything to do with binding the participants closer to the Mormon Church via the manufacture and manipulation of emotions.


Yes, but this is not uncommon. When I pray, I intend to have "spiritual feelings" that I will associate as a "witness of the Spirit".

When I kiss a girl I intend to have "romantic feelings" that will solidify the concept that I "love her".
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

guy sajer wrote:The problem I have with such events is their underlying purpose: To indoctrinate.

The whole experience is designed to manufacture "spiritual feelings" that participants will be conditioned to associate with "witness of the spirit" that the Mormon Church is "true." That's the ultimate objective.

In the end, it has little to do with really, truly understand what life might have been like back in the days but everything to do with binding the participants closer to the Mormon Church via the manufacture and manipulation of emotions.


exactly.

Thanks guy.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Just say "No".

End of problem.
_Inconceivable
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Post by _Inconceivable »

harmony wrote:Just say "No".

End of problem.


No, harmony. How about, "let's talk about it because you know how I feel about this". My wife is entitled to a little more respect from me and my manpants. Particularly in matters of religeon.

She's fully remembers the experience related to us by our son. It gave us both cause for concern at the time.

I did show her the site with the psycho-trauma burial dolls. I gotta tell you, they really creaped us both out. From our life's experience, it was very disturbing. I thought it was just a rumor.

I have an ulterior motive here.

The thread exists because I'd like her to read it.

On a side note, for someone with 3 zillion posts I've never seen you write "no" and bring a quick end to any discussion. : /
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