Argue that it's true

[_The Nehor]

No.

seems like a lot of people are ignoring factual errors in their scriptures and religious doctrine and either arguing the usefulness of it, or the problems associated with not believing.

Right, well it's easier to attack others and adopt a bunker mentality then to look at your own beliefs. What I find startling is why they think atheist thought is flawed. Now, I could understand believing that atheists have it "wrong" in the sense that they just don't recognize God and are missing out. Yet, that's not what they do. They must attack atheism as a belief system -- they NEED atheism to be equated somehow to a dogmatic religion to try to strip it down and defeat it. Odd?

I do?

I'm assuming you don't, but you are probably more moderate in your doctrinal beliefs right? I mean to say that a fundamentalist Mormon, or someone who really is convicted in their beliefs, would probably attack atheism as a belief system. And they are supported in their hatred for atheism by scripture.

I don't know if I'm moderate....anyone want to help me out on this? Where do I stand? I thought I was more towards the lunatic fringe.

Why do I need to attack athiesm no matter what I believe? I also doubt the existence of the Invisible Spaghetti Monster, New York, and the female orgasm but I have no compulsive need to cry down those who do believe in them in order to maintain those beliefs ;)

[_Ray A]

seems like a lot of people are ignoring factual errors in their scriptures and religious doctrine and either arguing the usefulness of it, or the problems associated with not believing.

One thing has now become very clear to me. Hoffer's definition of zealot applies 100% to you. Face it, you're an acolyte for atheism. That was obvious in your sig. line at MAD. Enjoy the praise you get from your fellow atheists. Go to sleep reading their posts. Sweet Lull-a-bye.

[_The Nehor]

No.

seems like a lot of people are ignoring factual errors in their scriptures and religious doctrine and either arguing the usefulness of it, or the problems associated with not believing.

Right, well it's easier to attack others and adopt a bunker mentality then to look at your own beliefs. What I find startling is why they think atheist thought is flawed. Now, I could understand believing that atheists have it "wrong" in the sense that they just don't recognize God and are missing out. Yet, that's not what they do. They must attack atheism as a belief system -- they NEED atheism to be equated somehow to a dogmatic religion to try to strip it down and defeat it. Odd?

I do?

Do you argue that your religion is true?

Many that do (haven't seen you do that) try to place atheism as a belief system to show how awful atheists are and show the joys and wonders of being in the religion. If atheists actually do find meaning in their lives, if they are charitable, if they are honest, if they essentially are good, ethical people then this strips away much of the argument for why atheism is so horrid. I've been on MAD many a times where I have to state repeatedly that atheists have NO dogma, no belief system outside the belief in God. Yet, often, over there, I had to be pigeonholed into being a stereotype of a bad person (or all atheists) so that they could demolish that make believe belief system (that they are CONVINCED all atheists prescribe to) in order to prove that their belief system was superior.

In other words:

I accept God and I'm a good person.

Atheist doesn't accept God and is the opposite of me in every way (ie bad person) so I better stick with God

I do sometimes argue that my religion is plausible but I don't think I can prove it. I'm a bit lazy in that area and pass the buck to the Holy Ghost.

Atheism isn't really a belief system. They have very little in common. You could argue that other schools of thought atheists and others hold can be belief systems. A few radical atheists might turn their lack of belief in God into a belief system but it's a weak one. I lump them into the same category as those people who spend their lives trying to prove the existence of God without paying heed to what he says and does.

I have heard the argument that atheists can not be moral in the same sense as those who hold religious views. However, I have met no one in my life whose every moral decision is based off an underlying belief system (be they atheist or otherwise). I prefer the doctrine of the Two Ways to the Doctrine of the Two parties. The first holds that there is one way to God and people are moving along it one way or the other at their individual paces. The other holds that there is us (the good guys, the democracies, the True Believers, the Chosen, etc.) versus them (the bad guys, the Commies, the Heathens, the Heretics, etc.) and belonging to something makes you right......and justifies everything you do against the enemy.

[_Moniker]

No.

seems like a lot of people are ignoring factual errors in their scriptures and religious doctrine and either arguing the usefulness of it, or the problems associated with not believing.

Right, well it's easier to attack others and adopt a bunker mentality then to look at your own beliefs. What I find startling is why they think atheist thought is flawed. Now, I could understand believing that atheists have it "wrong" in the sense that they just don't recognize God and are missing out. Yet, that's not what they do. They must attack atheism as a belief system -- they NEED atheism to be equated somehow to a dogmatic religion to try to strip it down and defeat it. Odd?

I do?

I'm assuming you don't, but you are probably more moderate in your doctrinal beliefs right? I mean to say that a fundamentalist Mormon, or someone who really is convicted in their beliefs, would probably attack atheism as a belief system. And they are supported in their hatred for atheism by scripture.

I don't know if I'm moderate....anyone want to help me out on this? Where do I stand? I thought I was more towards the lunatic fringe.

Why do I need to attack athiesm no matter what I believe? I also doubt the existence of the Invisible Spaghetti Monster, New York, and the female orgasm but I have no compulsive need to cry down those who do believe in them in order to maintain those beliefs ;)

Nehor, I haven't seen you attack atheism. You know you're not the only one on these boards. ;)

I'm just saying it's a little disconcerting to have to repeatedly tell people that I do care about my fellow man. I am charitable. I do find meaning in my life. I have a sense of eternal (that is in the way of my children, grandchildren that I may have one day, etc.. and humanity in general), and that I find joy, wonder, and awe in life.

Do you not read the threads on MAD where the pigeonholes are often put? And this is in the community at large (where I live) that atheists are nuts and are lunatics that want to destroy society and strip away all morality.

There's a cultural war being waged right now in our country. Where have you been? ;)

And, gotta say, I'm JUST as irritated by those that are atheists attacking theists as if they're all nasty, irrational idiots as well. The intolerance can be seen in both camps.

[_Moniker]

No.

seems like a lot of people are ignoring factual errors in their scriptures and religious doctrine and either arguing the usefulness of it, or the problems associated with not believing.

Right, well it's easier to attack others and adopt a bunker mentality then to look at your own beliefs. What I find startling is why they think atheist thought is flawed. Now, I could understand believing that atheists have it "wrong" in the sense that they just don't recognize God and are missing out. Yet, that's not what they do. They must attack atheism as a belief system -- they NEED atheism to be equated somehow to a dogmatic religion to try to strip it down and defeat it. Odd?

I do?

Do you argue that your religion is true?

Many that do (haven't seen you do that) try to place atheism as a belief system to show how awful atheists are and show the joys and wonders of being in the religion. If atheists actually do find meaning in their lives, if they are charitable, if they are honest, if they essentially are good, ethical people then this strips away much of the argument for why atheism is so horrid. I've been on MAD many a times where I have to state repeatedly that atheists have NO dogma, no belief system outside the belief in God. Yet, often, over there, I had to be pigeonholed into being a stereotype of a bad person (or all atheists) so that they could demolish that make believe belief system (that they are CONVINCED all atheists prescribe to) in order to prove that their belief system was superior.

In other words:

I accept God and I'm a good person.

Atheist doesn't accept God and is the opposite of me in every way (ie bad person) so I better stick with God

I do sometimes argue that my religion is plausible but I don't think I can prove it. I'm a bit lazy in that area and pass the buck to the Holy Ghost.

Atheism isn't really a belief system. They have very little in common. You could argue that other schools of thought atheists and others hold can be belief systems. A few radical atheists might turn their lack of belief in God into a belief system but it's a weak one. I lump them into the same category as those people who spend their lives trying to prove the existence of God without paying heed to what he says and does.

How could a lack of belief in something then become a belief in something? I'm not following you. I think you can make the case that there are atheists with agendas, but you can't say that all atheists have a set of beliefs that they prescribe to.

I have heard the argument that atheists can not be moral in the same sense as those who hold religious views. However, I have met no one in my life whose every moral decision is based off an underlying belief system (be they atheist or otherwise). I prefer the doctrine of the Two Ways to the Doctrine of the Two parties. The first holds that there is one way to God and people are moving along it one way or the other at their individual paces. The other holds that there is us (the good guys, the democracies, the True Believers, the Chosen, etc.) versus them (the bad guys, the Commies, the Heathens, the Heretics, etc.) and belonging to something makes you right......and justifies everything you do against the enemy.

Yah, I've heard that too about atheism and morality. I have a set of ethics. I didn't go to primary to learn about sin nor was I indoctrinated with religious dogma to understand that actions have consequences and there are ways to live our lives that go about creating the most benefit for ourselves and others.

I think you're right that there is an us vs. them mentality. I'm often surprised at how often I have to "prove" that I'm actually an okay person. Yet, according to Hammer I really am of Satan. I suppose he knows, Joseph probably told him. Ah well.

[_The Nehor]

Nehor, I haven't seen you attack atheism. You know you're not the only one on these boards. ;)

I'm just saying it's a little disconcerting to have to repeatedly tell people that I do care about my fellow man. I am charitable. I do find meaning in my life. I have a sense of eternal (that is in the way of my children, grandchildren that I may have one day, etc.. and humanity in general), and that I find joy, wonder, and awe in life.

Do you not read the threads on MAD where the pigeonholes are often put? And this is in the community at large (where I live) that atheists are nuts and are lunatics that want to destroy society and strip away all morality.

There's a cultural war being waged right now in our country. Where have you been? ;)

And, gotta say, I'm JUST as irritated by those that are atheists attacking theists as if they're all nasty, irrational idiots as well. The intolerance can be seen in both camps.

I think the main axis of the attack on atheism in that area comes from atheists having no rational basis for charity and meaning. While there is some truth to this argument, theists have no rational reason to prefer heaven over hell either. Yet they do. It's something in the makeup of our species that in my opinion defies logic. And as I said, humans are not rational or logical creatures.

[_The Nehor]

How could a lack of belief in something then become a belief in something? I'm not following you. I think you can make the case that there are atheists with agendas, but you can't say that all atheists have a set of beliefs that they prescribe to.

I'm referring to those who have what I consider to be a negative belief system tied to their real belief system and the negative overcomes the real one.

Imagine a voracious reader who loves to read. As an aside to his hobby he starts to collect signed first editions. This becomes more and more important until he's lost the ability to enjoy his books as he is out hunting more.

Same with the person who believes in a religious belief system but spends all their time attacking atheism and worldliness to the detriment of escaping worldliness.

Same with the atheist who seeks freedom outside of religion but instead of spending time searching for meaning and joy spends their time fixated on religion.

Most people know people who collect movies they never watch, books they never read, and fight for causes that are negative because the 'enemy' must be beaten. Turns you into a monster.

I like the story C.S. Lewis mentioned about the man who went to hell. Upon arrival he said, "I did neither the things I ought to have done nor the things I wanted to do." Whether you believe in hell or not I think we can agree that there is lot of wasted life going on.

[_Moniker]

Nehor, I haven't seen you attack atheism. You know you're not the only one on these boards. ;)

I'm just saying it's a little disconcerting to have to repeatedly tell people that I do care about my fellow man. I am charitable. I do find meaning in my life. I have a sense of eternal (that is in the way of my children, grandchildren that I may have one day, etc.. and humanity in general), and that I find joy, wonder, and awe in life.

Do you not read the threads on MAD where the pigeonholes are often put? And this is in the community at large (where I live) that atheists are nuts and are lunatics that want to destroy society and strip away all morality.

There's a cultural war being waged right now in our country. Where have you been? ;)

And, gotta say, I'm JUST as irritated by those that are atheists attacking theists as if they're all nasty, irrational idiots as well. The intolerance can be seen in both camps.

I think the main axis of the attack on atheism in that area comes from atheists having no rational basis for charity and meaning. While there is some truth to this argument...

Well can you make that argument? ;)

Why don't I have a rational basis for charity? Why do I give to my community? Why do I volunteer my time and money to efforts to right social injustice and help those in need? Why do I assist my neighbors in time of hardships? Why do I help when needed? Why am I involved heavily in my community?

Rationale:
Charity: It feels good to do it. I derive benefit from helping others and the community become a better place and in doing so create a better place for myself, my family, and the rest of humanity. Empathy is natural for most humans -- with or without religion. I have a great deal of empathy and moral outrage at certain things and these traits (not indoctrinated in me by religion) cause me to react when I feel that I can be of assistance to my fellow man.

Meaning: My children give me meaning to life. When I take a walk in the woods and lay down with the sunlight filtering through the trees towering above me I feel a sense of awe and wonder that brings me meaning. When I travel and learn about and explore new cultures and reacquaint myself familiar places I find interest and a great deal of excitement from the experience. I read a book and my mind is stimulated and I find a new topic to explore -- I find that meaningful. I listen to my daughter play her guitar and it brings tears to my eyes -- there is meaning there. Intimate moments with a man I love is meaningful to me. Laughter and finding humor in life brings me meaning! I sit down and play the piano and feel at one with the music while I become entranced. My meaning of life: To enjoy it. Seek the wonder, the beauty, and the sublime. THAT is the meaning of life -- for me.

theists have no rational reason to prefer heaven over hell either. Yet they do. It's something in the makeup of our species that in my opinion defies logic. And as I said, humans are not rational or logical creatures.

Why don't theists have a rational reason to prefer heaven over hell? I'm not following you! If I believed in either of those I sure as hell would prefer heaven over hell! It seems pretty rational to me to choose a comfy cloud over the brimstones of misery and eternal wailing.

[_EAllusion]

I'll take this question as a roundabout way of asking if religious belief can be justified. Clearly, I think the answer is almost certainly not. I think a good practical case for this is that the arguments used by theologians and other religious experts to justify things like the existence of God are terrible, have been demonstrated so for some time, but are continually recycled over the years. They're working with the best they got, and it's not very good.

[_solomarineris]

seems like a lot of people are ignoring factual errors in their scriptures and religious doctrine and either arguing the usefulness of it, or the problems associated with not believing.

One thing has now become very clear to me. Hoffer's definition of zealot applies 100% to you. Face it, you're an acolyte for atheism. That was obvious in your sig. line at MAD. Enjoy the praise you get from your fellow atheists. Go to sleep reading their posts. Sweet Lull-a-bye.

Ok, dude,
I don't think you have any right to labeling people "Atheist" "Antimormon"
I've read her thread an MADD. The same tactic all over; when the rational discussion goes down tubes
the modes push the magic button "come back in three days". Only dimbulbs with !Q lower than room temperature do that.
They don't have the stamina to stand what they believe. I didn't read wheter GoodK proclaimed herself to be an "Atheist"?
If she did so what?
You do not say HERE go to anywhere. She stays if she wants to.