Life Meaning -- Atheists? Theists?

[_Moniker]

God takes the responsibility of finding meaning from theists.

BUT HOW? Why aren't any theists jumping in here?

This is so confusing to me. What precisely is the meaning of life for theists that is given to them by God?

Atheists have to work a bit harder, but through their work can perhaps have more personal growth than people who are raised in a belief system and never leave that comfort zone.

Why do you say they have to work harder? I've never been a theist and it's never been difficult for me to determine what purpose I have in life. Or what, for me personally, the meaning of life is. Joy, humor, art, literature, love, friendship, family, music, social justice, nature, etc... All these things bring me fulfillment and I have found that my purpose is to seek these things. It's not that hard, really.

[_truth dancer]

The purpose of life is to transform energy.

The meaning in that is whatever one puts on it.

:-)

~dancer~

[_The Nehor]

Nehor says that atheists have no rational basis for meaning to their life. If he'd like to elaborate on that here that would be great!

I didn't say that. I said there is an argument that can be made for that. Whether it is right I have no idea. You should add that I also said that really using pure reason theists don't have a rational basis for finding meaning either. Meaning in life is not a rational thing.

This is what you said:

I think the main axis of the attack on atheism in that area comes from atheists having no rational basis for charity and meaning. While there is some truth to this argument theists have no rational reason to prefer heaven over hell either.

Well, can you tell me about the "some truth" to the argument? That's what I was getting at. I assumed that since you stated that there was some truth to this argument that you agreed with the argument in some way? I think there are rational reasons to prefer heaven over hell if you're a believer in those! :)

Why is meaning in life not rational for atheists?

Is there a rational basis for theists?

I don't see you saying that meaning in life for theists is not rational -- unless you're insinuating with the heaven and hell (reward and punishment) that this is not rational.

I misspoke. I apologize. I meant that there might be some merit to that argument but I would not argue it.

[_Moniker]

I misspoke. I apologize. I meant that there might be some merit to that argument but I would not argue it.

Well, that's no fun! Where are all the theists that like to make this argument? Where oh where have they gone???

[_Gadianton]

Much rides on the definition of meaning, and the angle at which one is defining meaning. This is one of those huge subjects I've only scratched the surface on. One angle to come at meaning is semantical. Another is meaning as personal fulfillment. The two can be ignorantly conflated as Christians are famous for doing. There might be a more complex relation between these two angles, though it will require some thoughtful analysis. The most interesting and deep probings into what "meaning" means has been in this century devoid of any religious considerations.

a) When most Christians say life wouldn't have any meaning without their maniac God, they really mean life wouldn't have any meaning without the things they are comfortable in life with like their dog, or kids, religion or whatever. I think it's valid to feel this way, in fact I question whether there is any other way to frame personal fulfillment, but that doesn't imply anything special about the xtian position.

b) Then there is the argument that God is the designer or great interpretor who has decided what everything means and assigns values. I'm not sure it's a stable position at all, but let's go with it a bit. Alvin Plantinga put it this way. Meaning is subjective to God so that it can be objective to us. It is true then, that if there is a God, and he defines meaning, then there wouldn't be an objective meaning without God.

But given how easily a) can come into conflict with b), who cares? If you are gay, and God has decreed the eternal sentence "A meaningful marriage is only between a man and woman", yet you have no subjective, physical or intellectual way of appreciating that, then why would it matter? What if God had decided that the purpose of the entire race of humans is to suffer in hell forever? (he's come very close to deciding this in virtually every religion anyway)

Fulfilling the conditions for objective meaning seem pretty arbitrary.

[_EAllusion]

I made in important discovery not too long ago. It turns out that the creationists were right. Humans are the product of design. They were fabricated in an experiment by the aliens of Claxton-9. They are breeding us on planet earth so that we may eventually toil in their intergalactic spice mines. Our deaths are an illusion. When we die, it means we have matured to the point that we are ready to be slaves in their mining operations. Our lifeforce is captured and placed in a new body on a distant planet. This process repeats itself as we age. Humans live a very long time, and most of that lifespan is a backbreaking, torturous existence under the crack of their laserwhips.

Fortunately, because we were designed with this purpose in mind, that means our lives have meaning. Sweet.

[_The Nehor]

I misspoke. I apologize. I meant that there might be some merit to that argument but I would not argue it.

Well, that's no fun! Where are all the theists that like to make this argument? Where oh where have they gone???

MA&D, I think. :)

[_The Nehor]

Much rides on the definition of meaning, and the angle at which one is defining meaning. This is one of those huge subjects I've only scratched the surface on. One angle to come at meaning is semantical. Another is meaning as personal fulfillment. The two can be ignorantly conflated as Christians are famous for doing. There might be a more complex relation between these two angles, though it will require some thoughtful analysis. The most interesting and deep probings into what "meaning" means has been in this century devoid of any religious considerations.

a) When most Christians say life wouldn't have any meaning without their maniac God, they really mean life wouldn't have any meaning without the things they are comfortable in life with like their dog, or kids, religion or whatever. I think it's valid to feel this way, in fact I question whether there is any other way to frame personal fulfillment, but that doesn't imply anything special about the xtian position.

b) Then there is the argument that God is the designer or great interpretor who has decided what everything means and assigns values. I'm not sure it's a stable position at all, but let's go with it a bit. Alvin Plantinga put it this way. Meaning is subjective to God so that it can be objective to us. It is true then, that if there is a God, and he defines meaning, then there wouldn't be an objective meaning without God.

But given how easily a) can come into conflict with b), who cares? If you are gay, and God has decreed the eternal sentence "A meaningful marriage is only between a man and woman", yet you have no subjective, physical or intellectual way of appreciating that, then why would it matter? What if God had decided that the purpose of the entire race of humans is to suffer in hell forever? (he's come very close to deciding this in virtually every religion anyway)

Fulfilling the conditions for objective meaning seem pretty arbitrary.

Meaning for me is fulfilling my own personal maxim: I think, therefore I must become God or go mad trying.

[_Moniker]

Much rides on the definition of meaning, and the angle at which one is defining meaning. This is one of those huge subjects I've only scratched the surface on. One angle to come at meaning is semantical. Another is meaning as personal fulfillment. The two can be ignorantly conflated as Christians are famous for doing. There might be a more complex relation between these two angles, though it will require some thoughtful analysis. The most interesting and deep probings into what "meaning" means has been in this century devoid of any religious considerations.

a) When most Christians say life wouldn't have any meaning without their maniac God, they really mean life wouldn't have any meaning without the things they are comfortable in life with like their dog, or kids, religion or whatever. I think it's valid to feel this way, in fact I question whether there is any other way to frame personal fulfillment, but that doesn't imply anything special about the xtian position.

b) Then there is the argument that God is the designer or great interpretor who has decided what everything means and assigns values. I'm not sure it's a stable position at all, but let's go with it a bit. Alvin Plantinga put it this way. Meaning is subjective to God so that it can be objective to us. It is true then, that if there is a God, and he defines meaning, then there wouldn't be an objective meaning without God.

But given how easily a) can come into conflict with b), who cares? If you are gay, and God has decreed the eternal sentence "A meaningful marriage is only between a man and woman", yet you have no subjective, physical or intellectual way of appreciating that, then why would it matter? What if God had decided that the purpose of the entire race of humans is to suffer in hell forever? (he's come very close to deciding this in virtually every religion anyway)

Fulfilling the conditions for objective meaning seem pretty arbitrary.

Gad, I think I've mentioned to you before that if you wish to participate in my threads you should bring visual aides. ;)

I've read (and heard) theists say that life is not meaningful for those without a deity because there is no belief in an afterlife.

I think it would be helpful if there was some understanding of the terms. I've been put on the defensive so often when I've been informed that there is no meaning to my life because of a lack of belief in God. I never took the time to ask the questioner (informer) what precisely they meant by "meaning". I assumed it was personal fulfillment.

I agree about you with the personal fulfillment -- it seems that really those with or without belief in a deity each have subjective notions of "meaning" and how they are fulfilled. I suppose, I just want to know what God adds to the equation. Why is it that God adds any more "meaning" to those with the belief than those without. And I suppose when I state "meaning" -- I am referring to personal fulfillment. Obviously there are certain beliefs, rituals, practices that people find comfort in and this gives them fulfillment -- but why is that only imagined by theists and not granted to atheists?

So, if "meaning" is beyond just personal fulfillment for theists, what precisely is it? It's what God has dictated they must do now for the afterlife? That all the rules and regulations have been set and this gives them a purpose?

For a theist subjective fulfillment of happiness is not enough? Does this in turn create the idea that the pursuit of self-satisfaction without an objective meaning placed upon it somehow becomes hedonistic and sinful?

I wish a theist would pipe up. I just don't understand what they mean when the lack of belief in an afterlife somehow strips meaning away from life.

[_Moniker]

I made in important discovery not too long ago. It turns out that the creationists were right. Humans are the product of design. They were fabricated in an experiment by the aliens of Claxton-9. They are breeding us on planet earth so that we may eventually toil in their intergalactic spice mines. Our deaths are an illusion. When we die, it means we have matured to the point that we are ready to be slaves in their mining operations. Our lifeforce is captured and placed in a new body on a distant planet. This process repeats itself as we age. Humans live a very long time, and most of that lifespan is a backbreaking, torturous existence under the crack of their laserwhips.

Fortunately, because we were designed with this purpose in mind, that means our lives have meaning. Sweet.

It all has a purpose now! Thanks!

That actually sounds a bit more enticing than harps and angels -- which I could do without.

Or, of course, I could go hang out with Nehor the strutting stud? eep!