List of things that make Mormonism a cult

[_Moniker]

I just found this interesting:

http://www.elca.org/youth/helpsheets/cu ... #checklist

Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves, cult counselor Steven Hassan describes his "BITE model" stating that it is not necessary for every item or factor to be present for a group to be harmful, abusive, or exploitive of its members.:

* Behavior Control

* Regulation of individual's physical reality
* Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals
* Need to ask permission for major decisions
* Need to report thoughts, feelings, and activities to superiors
* Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques—positive and negative)
* Individualism discouraged; "group think" prevails
* Rigid rules and regulations
* Need for obedience and dependency

* Information Control

* Use of deception
* Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged
* Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
* Spying on other members is encouraged
* Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda
* Unethical use of confession

* Thought Control

* Need to internalize the group's doctrine as "Truth"
* Use of "loaded" language (for example, "thought-terminating clichés"). Words are the tools we use to think with. These "special" words constrict rather than expand understanding, and can even stop thoughts altogether. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous "buzz words."
* Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged.
* Use of hypnotic techniques to induce altered mental states
* Manipulation of memories and implantation of false memories
* Use of thought-stopping techniques, which shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts
* Rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate
* No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful

* Emotional Control

* Manipulate and narrow the range of a person's feelings
* Make the person feel that if there are ever any problems, it is always their fault, never the leader's or the group's
* Excessive use of guilt
* Excessive use of fear
* Extremes of emotional highs and lows
* Ritual and often public confession of "sins"
* Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader's authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.

I think this checklist actually could make a case that the LDS Church is a cult. I don't know about mainstream Christianity. I would suppose it would depend upon the individual Church.

Yet, there are many groups that could fit under the cult terminology that we don't necessarily view as harmful to society or the individual. I think often times it would be helpful to rank the level of such a checklist as above. For instance put a 1-10 scale next to each one and see how strongly each trait is found in the Church.

To me, it doesn't really matter if the LDS Church is a cult or not (much like Alcoholics Anonymous), but rather if it is necessarily a harmful cult.

I'm not making a case that it is or is not harmful -- I don't know to be honest. I imagine it could be harmful to some, and not to others.

[_Trinity]

Momentary thread highjack:

The question about the wealthy leaders and tithing has got me wondering, does the current prophet and twelve pay tithing on the money they receive from the church?

Ok. Carry on.

[_Mister Scratch]

Fine, Wade. Feel free to look up any scholarly guidebook on cults. Let's see how many parallels there are with Mormonism, and let's see whether or not this information sinks in with you. If we find enough parallels and definitional accuracies, will you therefore concede that "cult" is a fitting label? For my money, I am not really comfortable with the term "cult," but I'm curious if you are willing to put your money where your mouth is. As I recall, in a discussion on whether or not the LDS Church "lies" about what "it claims to be," you insisted on setting aside one definition of the word "lie," stating that we should define the word in as charitable and LDS-positive way as possible. Are you willing to do the same with the word "cult"?

Unfortunately, you don't appear to understand the key points of my argument. So, let me be a little more clear.

First, I am not arguing against the scholarly usage of the term. I am arguing against its usage and interpretation in the common venacular (like what occurs on message boards such as this).

Then please show how the "common vernacular" definition is in any substantial way different from the scholarly definition.

That is why I was very careful, each time I posed my questions, to speak in terms of "colloquial" meaning and usage.

Again, what's the real difference? Is it simply the fact that people you don't like are using the term?

Secondly, I am arguing against its colloquial usage on the grounds that it doesn't serve any useful purpose, and in fact tends to be counterproduct (as some on both sides have agreed on this thread).

Oh, okay. Well, it seems perfectly clear to me that the folks in this thread are relying principally on the scholarly definition. If you'd like to prove how they're not, then by all means, go ahead.

Now, if you can find a way to reasonably surmount those two reasonable causes for rejecting the colloquil usage of the term, then I would be pleased to hear it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes: it seems perfectly reasonable to state that there are no real, substantive differences in meaning between the "colloquil" and scholarly definitions of the term "cult". If you can demonstrate what the differences are, I'm all ears.

[_Scottie]

Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves, cult counselor Steven Hassan describes his "BITE model" stating that it is not necessary for every item or factor to be present for a group to be harmful, abusive, or exploitive of its members.:

* Behavior Control

* Regulation of individual's physical reality - Check
* Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals Between church meetings, church callings and temple work, Check

* Need to ask permission for major decisions Not sure about this one. If you want to count asking the Mormon concept of the spirit, then yes, but the leaders don't have any say in what members do.
* Need to report thoughts, feelings, and activities to superiors Check
* Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques—positive and negative) Well, there are eternal rewards, but I don't see many church related rewards. Punishments include disfellowship, excommunication
* Individualism discouraged; "group think" prevails check
* Rigid rules and regulations check. Mormons pride themselves on being a pecular people with higher than normal standards. WoW comes into play here too.
* Need for obedience and dependency Not sure exactly what this one means...

* Information Control

* Use of deception check. Only positive church history is taught.
* Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged check
* Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines Not quite sure what this one means either...
* Spying on other members is encouraged I don't see the LDS church doing much of this. Some people are busybodies, but it isn't encouraged.
* Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda check. Book of Mormon, D&C and PoGP. Ensign, Friend.
* Unethical use of confession I don't see this one in the LDS church. I don't think confidential confessions for major sins is unethical.

* Thought Control

* Need to internalize the group's doctrine as "Truth" check
* Use of "loaded" language (for example, "thought-terminating clichés"). Words are the tools we use to think with. These "special" words constrict rather than expand understanding, and can even stop thoughts altogether. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous "buzz words." check. "I KNOW the church is true", "You can't describe the spirit. It's like describing salt", "All Anti-Mormon material are lies"
* Only "good" and "proper" thoughts are encouraged. Ok, check, but what religion doesn't teach this???
* Use of hypnotic techniques to induce altered mental states Nope. This one is definately NOT LDS.
* Manipulation of memories and implantation of false memories Nope. This one either

* Use of thought-stopping techniques, which shut down "reality testing" by stopping "negative" thoughts and allowing only "good" thoughts I guess, but again, what religion doesn't do this?
* Rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate Check
* No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful Nope. LDS firmly believe that all religions are good.

* Emotional Control

* Manipulate and narrow the range of a person's feelings Hmm...not sure about this one. I don't think the LDS church does this any more than any other religion.
* Make the person feel that if there are ever any problems, it is always their fault, never the leader's or the group's Check
* Excessive use of guilt Again, yes, but no more than any other religion.
* Excessive use of fear Same here.

* Extremes of emotional highs and lows Nope.
* Ritual and often public confession of "sins" Nope.
* Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader's authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.Check

[_Church Mouse]

* Need for obedience and dependency Not sure exactly what this one means...

This is principally instilled in youth and those on missions. The mission field is really its own little cult, much like the US Military, but according to Hassan's definition such organizations don't count as destructive cults because there is a way to honorably exit. Hassan is specifically referring to organizations that implement centralized resource control and authoritarian distribution of essential goods here... which, unless you are on Church Welfare, you're not a part of in the LDS church.

On church welfare, though, this is pretty obvious. The Relief Society president raids your refrigerator and cabinets to determine what you need, and assigns you a food or goods order. You must meet with the Bishop monthly to determine your needs. But again, that's usually a temporary thing.

* Spying on other members is encouraged I don't see the LDS church doing much of this. Some people are busybodies, but it isn't encouraged.

Wrong. The LDS Home Teaching program is an institutionalized method of doing exactly this. The Home Teachers are supposed to report on the condition of the family to their priesthood leaders. The fact that most Home Teachers don't Home Teach well is a measure of the incompetence of the bureaucracy of intelligence gathering for large numbers of people, not a measure that it isn't done.

* Unethical use of confession I don't see this one in the LDS church. I don't think confidential confessions for major sins is unethical.

It's not the confession that's unethical, it's how leadership uses the results of the confessional. The confessional is supposed to be private. The fact is, the Bishop can and will share your information with his higher-ups if he has any question regarding your membership status as a result of your confession, and will also often mention what you have told him in Priesthood Executive Committee.

The correct way to handle this would be for the Bishop, during your confession, to ask that he can share a specific piece of information with others in order to help you with it; if you refuse, it should remain secret.

* Use of hypnotic techniques to induce altered mental states Nope. This one is definitely NOT LDS.

Fast Sunday. Fasting is known to make people more receptive to suggestion. Once again, the fact it is followed poorly (skipping 1 meal, usually, rather than three) is a measure of the incompetence of implementation of the policy for large numbers of people, not that making you more receptive isn't the goal.

* No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful Nope. LDS firmly believe that all religions are good.

I disagree again. According to LDS doctrine, no other church has the capacity to save you. According to LDS public relations, all religions are good. This doctrine vs. PR image dichotomy is a classic cult symptom.

* Extremes of emotional highs and lows Nope.

Especially For Youth. Missionary Training Center. Youth Conference. The adults don't get hit with it much, but the kids and young adults get hit with the emotional roller-coaster HARD.

Now with that said, I think the LDS church is only a cult for some of the people some of the time, not all of the people all of the time. Hassan's "Breaking The Bonds" goes into some detail how groups have sub-groups within them that may or may not be destructive cults. It's a really good read, and with an utter lack of focus on Mormonism, a useful reference for LDS mental health professionals. I also think it's a great guide for the LDS church on HOW NOT TO BE A DESTRUCTIVE CULT. Insofar as an organization acts in these ways, they are a destructive cult. If they can change their patterns of behavior, they can avoid the label by avoiding being that way.

My focus is on helping those I care about avoid acting on the more destructive-cult-like elements of LDS culture.

[_Moniker]

Matthew P Barnson, thanks for your contribution to this thread. I just checked out your website. :)


Scottie:

* Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines Not quite sure what this one means either...

Wouldn't that be milk before meat? Possibly?

[_ozemc]

Matthew P Barnson, thanks for your contribution to this thread. I just checked out your website. :)


Scottie:

* Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines Not quite sure what this one means either...

Wouldn't that be milk before meat? Possibly?

Maybe the idea that the Holy Bible is scripture as long as it is translated correctly ...

[_EAllusion]

Insider vs. Outsider doctrines just refers to a situation like you saw with polygamy during the late Joseph Smith period. It refers to the practice of giving different or highly diluted information about the groups beliefs and practices to outsiders and new converts, then giving full or even contradictory doctrines as a person becomes increasingly indoctrinated into the group. It's because until a person has been drawn into the belief system sufficiently, certain information could seem absurd or offensive enough to drive them away from a lasting conversion in the first place. So you end with with a religion that has secrets for those who are properly initiated. Scientology is a fairly classic example of this practice. "Milk before Meat" is a means by which a group can justify this. So is "Sacred, not Secret." There are all sorts of ways to do it. People are told that they need to be ready to hear some special doctrine of the religion and that hearing it before they are can damage their spiritual growth. LDS practice this to some extent, but it isn't as stark now as in their past or as you see with some other religions.

This finds its way into a list on cults because it appears to be an illicit means of persuading people into dubious beliefs. Just be careful not to confuse it with legitimate examples of growing in knowledge.

[_Tidejwe]

I've always laughed at this video:
How to become a Cult Leader

While it's not intentionally about Mormons, and has a lot of things that don't apply to the church...I still found a TON of common ground. It gave me a good laugh. How many similarities can you find with the church culture? Maybe the video will help some of you add things to your lists.

I think the thing many people are missing is that while the church itself may not intentionally support some of the behaviors listed throughout this thread, the majority of members do act that way. It just seems weird to redefine things to say "We're not a cult, even though all the members act exactly as if we were one."

[_wenglund]

Fine, Wade. Feel free to look up any scholarly guidebook on cults. Let's see how many parallels there are with Mormonism, and let's see whether or not this information sinks in with you. If we find enough parallels and definitional accuracies, will you therefore concede that "cult" is a fitting label? For my money, I am not really comfortable with the term "cult," but I'm curious if you are willing to put your money where your mouth is. As I recall, in a discussion on whether or not the LDS Church "lies" about what "it claims to be," you insisted on setting aside one definition of the word "lie," stating that we should define the word in as charitable and LDS-positive way as possible. Are you willing to do the same with the word "cult"?

Unfortunately, you don't appear to understand the key points of my argument. So, let me be a little more clear.

First, I am not arguing against the scholarly usage of the term. I am arguing against its usage and interpretation in the common venacular (like what occurs on message boards such as this).

Then please show how the "common vernacular" definition is in any substantial way different from the scholarly definition.

I am sorry, but your question contains a false presupposition (i.e. that there is a "the scholarly definition" rather than a multiple of "sholarly definitions") and thus cannot sensibly be answered as is. The same applies to your other comments and questions.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-