I'm so glad the church spares no expense...

[_Moniker]

I think the same forces in play that will deny Kimball's dream are the same ones that make Meridian so crappy.

Can anyone subscribe to Meridian? I went to their website and didn't see that option anywhere.

I actually have a theory that as the spiritual forces increase, there is a Mormon cultural propensity to underachieve.

What do you mean by "spiritual forces"?

I think they are just a website. if not, what a sad waste of trees.

Haha. Agreed! :)

That last sentence I wrote made no sense, I had to get up and leave and hurry and crank that outWhat I meant was, that when it comes to applying talent to something related to faith, there is a cultural expectation in Mormonism for something dumbed down and exaggerating in humility. This in addition to the more general point that innovation in a theocracy doesn't make a lot of sense, we won't expect a lot of interesting things coming from members of an organization where the brethren decide the color of the shirt you wear to church on Sunday and so on.

Ah, gotcha. Sort of saps the creativity out of members when they're expected to conform.

There's actually a thread in telestial that deals with art/culture as it relates to LDS. I think Mercury started it.

[_wenglund]

I see a key distinction between judgementalism and judging righteously (I.e. when the circumstances morally warrant it). To me, judgementalism is a habit or attitude that tends to be an end unto itself (judging people mearly for the sake of judging) or which serves little or no functional purpose--though some may suppose it de-elevates the esteem of others in relation to themselves (an artificial way of making themselves feel better about themselves and somehow seem morally superior); whereas, righteous judgements may well serve useful purposes in elevating all parties concerned (in esteem or otherwise).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, I'm curious, Wade: Does your "Mr. D Theory" fit into the first or second kind of judgmentalism?

I am sorry, but your question is based on a false presupposition, and thus cannot be sensibly ansered as is. (Hint: theories are not judgements)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

I am just curious whether the critics who have become somewhat exercised over this issue may view themselves as waxing a bit judgemental and/or as having become somewhat of a "busy body" and a gossip?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I'm back late to this thread, but thought I'd borrow Mr. Scratch's succinct manner of reply:

Hi there, Wade. My answer is: No. Instead, I view myself as being an honest critic of boorish taste and crap aesthetics. Instead of a discussion of architecture we are handed a list of how much everything cost and how "exotic" it is to ohh and ahh over. This would be unpleasant in relation to a secular building, but its especially galling in relation to one with alleged spiritual dimensions.

I am grateful that you succinctly shared both your self-assessment in discussing the topic and your personal tastes in regards to the same.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mister Scratch]

I see a key distinction between judgementalism and judging righteously (I.e. when the circumstances morally warrant it). To me, judgementalism is a habit or attitude that tends to be an end unto itself (judging people mearly for the sake of judging) or which serves little or no functional purpose--though some may suppose it de-elevates the esteem of others in relation to themselves (an artificial way of making themselves feel better about themselves and somehow seem morally superior); whereas, righteous judgements may well serve useful purposes in elevating all parties concerned (in esteem or otherwise).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

So, I'm curious, Wade: Does your "Mr. D Theory" fit into the first or second kind of judgmentalism?

I am sorry, but your question is based on a false presupposition, and thus cannot be sensibly ansered as is. (Hint: theories are not judgements)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It was not a "false presupposition." As the ultimate authority of what I think and believe, I'm sure you'll accept my statement as the truth. (Hint: your "Mr. D Theory" is dripping with judgmental self-righteousness.)

[_SatanWasSetUp]

I don't know what the brethren are thinking with their temple building. I have to believe they think it's somehow a materially sound investment. It's not like ordinances for the dead couldn't be performed just as well in temples outside the US which could be rivaled by Charity's Motel 6.

I think it's part of a campaign to equate Mormonism with success. So it is also in Scientology.

Why are temples needed at all? Can't the ordinances be performed in a regular church building? And even if it is a doctrinal requirement to have a seperate temple set aside for ordinances, why do they have to be so extravagant? The Brethren(R) can do whatever they want the tithing money. People donated it willingly. It just seems adorning the temple with all manner of precious materials is a waste. What exactly is a Great and Spacious building, like the one described in LEhi's dream, anyway?

[_wenglund]

It was not a "false presupposition." As the ultimate authority of what I think and believe, I'm sure you'll accept my statement as the truth. (Hint: your "Mr. D Theory" is dripping with judgmental self-righteousness.)

While I unhesitatingly grant that you are the ultimate authority of what you think and believe, I have good reasons (not the least of which is your frequent misperceptions) to not grant you authority in declaring what is "true", particularly for me and what I have theorized.

I realize that you may not grasp that important distinction, or may mistakenly think yourself an authority in both regards.

However, since your question was directed to me, I can only rationally answer as I rationally understand things. And, since we are in disagreement on this fundamental point, and the discussion appears to have reached an impass, I see little value in continuing it.

So, unless you have a change of mind about theories being judgements, let me just close by saying: "it was nice talking to you."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_harmony]

I am surprised more active tithe paying members don't care.

I'm very interested in the Why? of this statement. Why don't the tithe paying members care? These same members require that every other charity they contribute to has to publish an annual report that includes the financial data. And they want it mailed to their home. Why do they not require this same transparency from the church?

[_The Nehor]

I am surprised more active tithe paying members don't care.

I'm very interested in the Why? of this statement. Why don't the tithe paying members care? These same members require that every other charity they contribute to has to publish an annual report that includes the financial data. And they want it mailed to their home. Why do they not require this same transparency from the church?

We do?

[_SatanWasSetUp]

I am surprised more active tithe paying members don't care.

I'm very interested in the Why? of this statement. Why don't the tithe paying members care? These same members require that every other charity they contribute to has to publish an annual report that includes the financial data. And they want it mailed to their home. Why do they not require this same transparency from the church?

We do?

I agree with Nehor. Most people, whether LDS or not, are too lazy to follow up with this stuff. We give our money, it makes us feel warm fuzzies, and that's good enough for us. It's a human thing. We don't like to think a charity that says it is doing something good would lie about it. Also, most LDS I know don't donate to charities outside the LDS church. Some of the more extreme consider it almost blasphemous to do so. If you have extra money to donate above your 10% tithing, just pay additional tithing. Let the church decide where best to put your money. That's how many LDS think.

[_harmony]

I agree with Nehor. Most people, whether LDS or not, are too lazy to follow up with this stuff. We give our money, it makes us feel warm fuzzies, and that's good enough for us. It's a human thing. We don't like to think a charity that says it is doing something good would lie about it. Also, most LDS I know don't donate to charities outside the LDS church. Some of the more extreme consider it almost blasphemous to do so. If you have extra money to donate above your 10% tithing, just pay additional tithing. Let the church decide where best to put your money. That's how many LDS think.

Well, shoot. Then I'm spending one whale of a lot of money putting my agency's annual report in the hands of the corporate sponsors, the participants, the donors, etc. Criminy! I should have listened to you guys and just told all those hundreds of businesses and people that they don't need to know where the money goes! Just think how much easier that would be.

Of course, that's not the real world. Maybe in the real world, people actually care where the money goes, so upstandiung agencies like mine (that would like to continue to have those millions roll in every year) publish the report and mail it out.

My bad for thinking church members might have been in that group. How silly of me. Someone should just tell my offices in Utah to shut the door and fire all the employees, because we're never going to make goal there.