Working your way to the CK

[_ozemc]

A little off-topic, but I have to admit, when I first saw this thread, the tune to the song "Working my way back to you" went through my head.

:-)

[_Sethbag]

The whole notion that one's ETERNAL situation will be determined by a few short years on each--given the lack of understanding, personal weaknesses, culture, cultural values and mores, environment, up-bringing, inherited traits, etc.--is incredibly unreasonable.

There is just too much we don't know, too much we don't understand, too much beyond our control, too much influence of environment, culture, expectatioons, etc., too much personal weakness, and so forth.

So, for the next 1,000,000 years, my entire existence will be determined by what I did during 18-80 years of life in a sitution in which I operated under incredibly strong and diverse forces working on me at all times and with no clear signal what I should be doing?

How is that in the remotest sense fair?

No idea but it is the reality.

No. It's the fantasy, not the reality.

Runtu, here's something to think about. In the LDS universe, you don't become a God because Elohim waves a magic wand over your head and POOF! you're a God. In the LDS worldview you become a God because you act like one. That is, you obey the laws that govern the Kingdom where Gods dwell. Plus, you have to know a few different handshakes and grips, but hey, that's too sacred to get into here, so I won't. <snicker>

So, how do you act like God? By learning what the laws are that Gods obey, and obeying them. Even if you learn to obey those laws, however, if you have a taint of sin on you, you can't enter that Kingdom. That's one of the ways in which the Atonement of Jesus comes into play, by washing off that taint of guilt. Another way, in the thoughts of a lot of people, is that it's this washing away by the Savior of one's sins that allows one to gain the insight that is required to truly come to understand the laws that Gods obey.

So that is, you can't enter the Kingdom of the Gods without being cleansed by the Atonement, and you can't even really learn and understand how to act like God except through the insight gained through the effects of the Atonement.

"Works", in this sense, are really kind of superficial. It's not "Works" per se, but rather acting like God, that matters. Your "works" are only effective in transitioning you to Godhood inasmuch as those works are helping you to act more like God. You don't get a reward because you "earned" it, you get a reward because you've obeyed the laws that this reward is predicated on. Obey all of the laws that God obeys, and all blessings flow unto you.

Neither is "faith" alone what it's all about. Merely having faith isn't acting like God. God does stuff (according to the mythology, which I don't believe, but understand). God would help people, God would act charitably toward people, etc. (That is, if he weren't busy slaughtering a hoarde of unbelievers.)

Do you see where this is going? Faith is important in LDSville inasmuch as it leads you to understand what you should be doing, and what you should be doing is important inasmuch as it leads you into greater compliance with the laws that Gods obey.

This is an aspect of LDS theology that I like a lot better than pretty much all of the other theologies I've ever learned about. That doesn't make it true, but it does make it nice to think about.

At least, that's my understanding of the LDS theological position. I could be wrong, and it really is all about blind obedience, knowing the right handshakes, and giving the Lord his pound of flesh after all. Who knows?

[_Runtu]

This is an aspect of LDS theology that I like a lot better than pretty much all of the other theologies I've ever learned about. That doesn't make it true, but it does make it nice to think about.

At least, that's my understanding of the LDS theological position. I could be wrong, and it really is all about blind obedience, knowing the right handshakes, and giving the Lord his pound of flesh after all. Who knows?

I agree with you. I really like the idea that humans have the potential to become like God, but that doesn't make it true. But what I do know is that the LDS gospel is not the "salvation by hard work" that charity describes.

[_Sethbag]

I guess that depends on what she means exactly. "We're saved by grace after all we can do (of make-work, drudgery, blind obedience, etc.)." would be retarded. "We're saved by grace after all we can do (to obey the laws that govern the Kingdom of the Gods)." would make a lot of sense, according to my conception of LDS doctrine.

It was taught by Joseph Smith that obedience is the first law of Heaven. In my conception of things, that would actually be correct, if by obedience was meant obedience to the laws that govern the Kingdom of the Gods. Unfortunately, in the LDS context, I think this was bastardized into meaning "Obedience (to the men who proclaim to represent God) is the first law of Heaven." And that's just plain wrong-headed, cultish, and leads to things like what we saw with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young in the early church, and to David Koresh and others in other religious movements.

[_charity]

I guess that depends on what she means exactly. "We're saved by grace after all we can do (of make-work, drudgery, blind obedience, etc.)." would be retarded. "We're saved by grace after all we can do (to obey the laws that govern the Kingdom of the Gods)." would make a lot of sense, according to my conception of LDS doctrine.

It was taught by Joseph Smith that obedience is the first law of Heaven. In my conception of things, that would actually be correct, if by obedience was meant obedience to the laws that govern the Kingdom of the Gods. Unfortunately, in the LDS context, I think this was bastardized into meaning "Obedience (to the men who proclaim to represent God) is the first law of Heaven." And that's just plain wrong-headed, cultish, and leads to things like what we saw with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young in the early church, and to David Koresh and others in other religious movements.

Of course, it means learning to obey the laws of God. The laws of God are found in the scriptures and in the revelations of God to mankind.

Edit to add: If you want to know what I mean and I didn't' say it plainly enough, ask me. Nobody here has the authoriziation from me to tell you what I believe. So, I would really appreciate if all you pretenders kept your "charity really means" to yourselves.

[_Abinadi's Fire]

What charity meant to say was:

Matthew 22:37 ... Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Just messin' - mmmmwah!

[_Gazelam]

We are saved by Grace Through Covenants.

This is plainly taught by Jesus Christ when he said in Mark chp.16:

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The idea here is to get the Holy Ghost involved, who sanctifies and seals.

This prepares one to be enlivened with the Spirit of the Lord to a greater extent, changeing the person into a new creature, as we read about in section 88 of the D&C.

In Matthew chapter twenty we get the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. We learn from this that its not the amount of time spent in the labor that matters, just the honest effort.

[_Scottie]

The Parable of the Bicycle

Two young girls were walking downtown with her father. They passed a bicycle shop and the girls saw the prettiest pink bicycle, with a basket and streamers! They asked their father if he would buy the bicycle for them. He said no, but that if they worked really hard and saved their pennies, that he would pay the rest.

The first girl worked really hard and saved her pennies. Sometimes she gave into temptation and spent a few pennies here on a candy, or a few there on a gumball. But this didn't deter her. When she slipped, she was ever more determined to save her pennies. And, she continued to save, despite her sweet tooth weakness.

The second girl would do a job here or there, perhaps spend some on a candy, and get discouraged. She thought it impossible to save enough pennies to get the bicycle.

Several months later, the father took the girls back to the bicycle shop. The first girl proudly handed her father a jar filled with 100 pennies. The father took the 100 pennies, combined with his $100 bill and bought her the bike with the basket and streamers. The second girl told the father that she was only able to save 50 pennies. The father asked if it was fair that she get the same bicycle as the first daughter, who had worked so much harder and sacrificed so much more. The second daughter agreed that it was not fair. She was still able to get a bicycle, but it was a purple one, without any basket or streamers. The father took the 50 pennies, along with $50 and purchased this bicycle for her.

So, you see, there is no way either girl could have ever achieved buying the bicycle on her own. But their father wasn't going to just give it to them either. They had to at least make an effort to earn the bicycle, and after all that they could do, the father paid the rest.

To hear EV's tell it, all the girl would have to do it to give her daddy a kiss on the cheek and say she loved him, and the bicycle was hers. No effort at all on her part.

[_bcspace]

This is from another thread, but I thought it deserved its own discussion. charity repeated a folk doctrine that I have heard many times but that does not square with the scriptures. Here it is and my response:

charity wrote:

Our view, of course, is that the atonement provides for us what we can't provide for ourselves. But that we are required to do all we can. It is by grace we are saved AFTER all we can do. Proving ourselves worthy is that "all we can do."

That is most certainly not LDS doctrine. We are saved by grace, after all we can do. And what we can do is virtually nothing. In fact, the Book of Mormon reminds us of our "nothingness." The way you describe it, people work their butts off to prove themselves worthy, and then the Atonement makes up the difference, as if it's the cherry on top of a sundae we made with our own hands.

I thought my answer to you on MADB was pretty good.....

[_Sethbag]

Scottie, my understanding of LDS theology was that it was never like that parable. Not one bit.