List of things that make Mormonism a cult

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_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

So members don't have to pay tithing to get TR now? How DID I miss this announcement.



They are not forced to do anything. Tithing is a requirement; it is not coerced. The question was one of force.

Why do you continue to give aid and comfort to those in the fever swamps of opposition to the Church of which you are a part?



You have no toleration for anything that you do not agree with.


This is a patent falsehood, which deserves no response. I have no toleration for bad faith, disingenuity, tendentiousness, and intellectual infantility of the kind that tends, on some occasions, to define forums such as this. Scottie is, unfortunately, a poster child for this state of affairs.


I do not recall the New Testament stating anything about tithing being a mandate for being a disciple.


Why jump to the New Testament Jason? What about the Old Testament and the D&C?


So in other word.......paying money is still a requirement for temple attendance.


You know, you are, Jason, at this point, at the very outer edge of intellectual and ethical credibility. It is the obedience to the principle that is the requirement, not the money. Do you too, enjoy this kind of word gaming?

I did not think serving was a condition of salvation. Did I miss something? It thought one served because they want to serve.
[url][/quote]


Classic false dichotomy. Word games.[/url]
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

You guys are throwing around the word "cult" so sloppily that I'm not going to bother reading all of your blather. (Code for I don't feel like reading it all ;-)

For starters, Ev's do NOT use the same criteria that I noticed posted earlier in the thread to judge Mormonsim as a cult. Infact, Ev's who do use the term "cult" specify that Mormonism is a Christian cult and therein lies the difference. It is not meant to offend, it is meant to identify.

Jersey Girl

(Boy did I put my foot in it or what?)
_Church Mouse
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Post by _Church Mouse »

Coggins7 wrote:You know, you are, Jason, at this point, at the very outer edge of intellectual and ethical credibility. It is the obedience to the principle that is the requirement, not the money.


The only way to enter the Celestial Kingdom is to perform your ordinances.
Ordinances can only be performed in the Temple.
You must have a Recommend to enter a Temple.
You must pay a full tithe to get a Recommend.

If you do not pay, you do not get a recommend, you do not go to the Temple, you do not receive your saving ordinances, and you are damned (LDS definition: stopped up) for eternity. One definition of "coerce" is to use the threat of force. Damning one's soul for all eternity if they do not pay a full tithe seems to fit that definition.
--
Matthew P. Barnson
_Church Mouse
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Post by _Church Mouse »

Moniker wrote:Matthew P Barnson, thanks for your contribution to this thread. I just checked out your website. :)


Glad you dig it. I realized a few months ago that my moniker of "Church Mouse" was no privacy shield, so I figured to just screw it and use my real name everywhere. Fewer repercussions that way, and I watch what I say a bit better when I realize I'm just one Google query away from an angry email from a TBM relative :)

As has been clearly demonstrated, there is a lot of semantic wiggle room when talking definitions, even if there is a specific checklist. I see Home Teaching as institutionalized information-gathering; Wade counters that it's not spying because the information gathered is usually beneficial to the one being spied upon.

There's a reason I normally lurk rather than participate. People take this stuff entirely too seriously.
--
Matthew P. Barnson
_JAK
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Use of Fear

Post by _JAK »

Church Mouse wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:You know, you are, Jason, at this point, at the very outer edge of intellectual and ethical credibility. It is the obedience to the principle that is the requirement, not the money.


The only way to enter the Celestial Kingdom is to perform your ordinances.
Ordinances can only be performed in the Temple.
You must have a Recommend to enter a Temple.
You must pay a full tithe to get a Recommend.

If you do not pay, you do not get a recommend, you do not go to the Temple, you do not receive your saving ordinances, and you are damned (LDS definition: stopped up) for eternity. One definition of "coerce" is to use the threat of force. Damning one's soul for all eternity if they do not pay a full tithe seems to fit that definition.


And someone on this forum in another thread claimed that religion did not use fear as persuasion.

From within the narrow perspective of LDS, and if one wants to be accepted there, it appears fear is an important tool.

Other religious groups use fear as well. But you demonstrate it in this post.

JAK
_JAK
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Yes, But..

Post by _JAK »

Jersey Girl wrote:You guys are throwing around the word "cult" so sloppily that I'm not going to bother reading all of your blather. (Code for I don't feel like reading it all ;-)

For starters, Ev's do NOT use the same criteria that I noticed posted earlier in the thread to judge Mormonsim as a cult. Infact, Ev's who do use the term "cult" specify that Mormonism is a Christian cult and therein lies the difference. It is not meant to offend, it is meant to identify.

Jersey Girl

(Boy did I put my foot in it or what?)


Yes, you’re wise.

What did you think of this article?

JAK
_Church Mouse
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Re: Use of Fear

Post by _Church Mouse »

JAK wrote:And someone on this forum in another thread claimed that religion did not use fear as persuasion.


"People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it’s true, or because they are afraid it might be true." --Terry Goodkind, Wizard's First Rule
--
Matthew P. Barnson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

The only way to enter the Celestial Kingdom is to perform your ordinances.
Ordinances can only be performed in the Temple.
You must have a Recommend to enter a Temple.
You must pay a full tithe to get a Recommend.

If you do not pay, you do not get a recommend, you do not go to the Temple, you do not receive your saving ordinances, and you are damned (LDS definition: stopped up) for eternity. One definition of "coerce" is to use the threat of force. Damning one's soul for all eternity if they do not pay a full tithe seems to fit that definition.


Another critic attempting to use logical analysis to make their point? Shame, shame. Shall we parse this for its validity or soundness? No, why bother. The author of this piece doesn't understand LDS doctrine particularly well, so perhaps there is no point at all.

I want to draw particular attention to the logically frail inference our intrepid author makes in the last paragraph. He says:

One definition of "coerce" is to use the threat of force. Damning one's soul for all eternity if they do not pay a full tithe seems to fit that definition.


This argument could only work under conditions in which Damnation is understood as a threat, and in which the threat of force is understood itself to be predicated upon an unwillingness to comply. The thorough misunderstanding of LDS doctrine here is critical. Damnation, in varying degrees, is simply the consequence of the level of knowledge and light we were willing to receive in mortality. It is not a threat so much as a statement of the cause and effect relationships inherent in spiritual realities.

Further, there are a body of requirements for entering the Temple, of which financial support of the physical Kingdom of God is only one. Why focus on only this? The Word of Wisdom, law of chastity, honesty in business dealings, support of the Brethren and local leaders, and others are requirements as well, and all are fall under the "threat" of damnation if one ignores them. Indeed, in LDS doctrine, damnation is a consequence of any degree of rebellion against light and knowledge when it has been revealed. Damnation comes then, in a wide variety of forms and in different degrees.

Further, all forms of damnation except damnation in Outer Darkness, involve kingdoms of glory. We are blessed and damned to the degree of our willingness to accept truth in this life.

Our intrepid Church Mouse then, is selling philosophical snake oil. We are free agents unto ourselves here, and have many options in choosing to obey the voice of the Lord, or to go our own way and follow the Yellow Brick Roads of Babylon. What Mouse, as so very many critics (and, in particular, the more secular and liberal among them) seem intent on doing, is confusing threat and coercion with the simple act of pointing out the consequences of certain actions or choices in relation to other acts and choices against a background of alternatives. Thus, when it is seen that negative consequences are said to result from transgression of God's commandments and counsel, This is perceived (especially by those for whom such requirements are indeed a threat to self concept of world view) as a threat of force.

Of course, after several generations of being taught, through the pop culture and media that, indeed, bad things should never happen to us, regardless of our behavior, I can see the internal conflicts that result when faced with a philosophy that says yes, in point of fact, there are negative consequences that follow, inherently, from certain actions and choices.

All the Gospel does is identify the choices and their effects; it does not impose by force, that one make one choice over another.

What mouse and other critics of this general persuasion here are really looking for is a church without standards at all; a church for the masses in which all participate at all levels of worship regardless either of what they think, or how they behave.

Frankly, to paraphrase Groucho, I'd never want to be a part of any church that would have me as a member, if by that is meant opening its entire system of doctrine, philosophy, and worship to me as I am at this time.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Jersey Girl wrote:You guys are throwing around the word "cult" so sloppily that I'm not going to bother reading all of your blather. (Code for I don't feel like reading it all ;-)

For starters, Ev's do NOT use the same criteria that I noticed posted earlier in the thread to judge Mormonsim as a cult. Infact, Ev's who do use the term "cult" specify that Mormonism is a Christian cult and therein lies the difference. It is not meant to offend, it is meant to identify.

Jersey Girl

(Boy did I put my foot in it or what?)


EVs who are in the know, apply the word cult to the LDS church to mean a pseudo Christian movement, one that attempts to be or appear Christian, but is not. Most EVs when they hear cult used towards the LDS Church think of the Jones or Koresh type cult.
_Jason Bourne
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »



They are not forced to do anything. Tithing is a requirement; it is not coerced. The question was one of force.


One could argue that there is some duress at least. You must pay it to enter the place where you get the most important things that religion has to offer.
Why do you continue to give aid and comfort to those in the fever swamps of opposition to the Church of which you are a part?


Well I think I point out things that in my opinion are problems and defend those things that I think are not and are good.



You have no toleration for anything that you do not agree with.

This is a patent falsehood, which deserves no response. I have no toleration for bad faith, disingenuity, tendentiousness, and intellectual infantility of the kind that tends, on some occasions, to define forums such as this. Scottie is, unfortunately, a poster child for this state of affairs.


I am sorry Coggins but I see little toleration from you on much of anything.


I do not recall the New Testament stating anything about tithing being a mandate for being a disciple.

Why jump to the New Testament Jason? What about the Old Testament and the D&C?


The Old Testament was supreceded by the New Testament. The D&C does mandate tithing for Church membership though we do not follow its instruction to the tee.


So in other word.......paying money is still a requirement for temple attendance.

You know, you are, Jason, at this point, at the very outer edge of intellectual and ethical credibility. It is the obedience to the principle that is the requirement, not the money. Do you too, enjoy this kind of word gaming?


Word games? You said it was not required then you said it was. Simply pointing that out.

I did not think serving was a condition of salvation. Did I miss something? It thought one served because they want to serve.
[url][/quote]


Classic false dichotomy. Word games.[/url][/quote]

Whatever
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