What good does it do to criticize?

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_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
BishopRic wrote:Yes, most of us exmos have Mormon family members, neighbors and friends. Nehor is right -- we aren't going to re-join, but we would like TBMs to recognize that outsiders are equally worthy people. Until that happens, there will never be true, unconditional love and acceptance. The way we choose to promote that is to point out the inconsistencies of teachings...someday a light may go off, and they will see that we are all good people, Mormon or not!

Is pointing out the inconsistencies of teachings really the best way to promote unconditional love and acceptance (unless of course the teachings are inconsistent with unconditional love and acceptance...)?



“Be the change that you want to see in the world.” --Mohandas Gandhi


“Have you had a good bowel movement this morning, sisters?” -Mohandas Gandhi

:-)
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Moniker
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Re: Criticism as a gift

Post by _Moniker »

rcrocket wrote:
Church Mouse wrote:I know I'm not unique in this view, but I haven't seen it expressed this way in this thread yet. Criticism can be a gift to the criticized. It means that someone has given sufficient thought to a person or thing to think about and recommend adjustments. Well-thought-out, constructive criticism is precious. Poorly-thought-out criticism is like a beautifully-wrapped package of dog poop.

I think that it's important when I hear criticism that I evaluate:
* Whether I'm being criticized, or something or someone with whom I affiliate. The two are very different animals, despite how much I root for my favorite sports teams.
* Whether the specific criticism has merit.
* If it has merit, how I can improve on the thing being criticized.

There are some criticisms that deserve consideration... and there are others that don't. I struggle to differentiate sometimes, but I'm improving.


Do you think it honorable to criticize somebody behind their back rather than to their face, to somebody with no power to effect a change in the person being criticized?

Do you think it honorable to use an anonymous name to post public criticism on a telephone pole of a living person with a family and a repuation in that person's neighborhood?

If you work and have a job, do you think it honorable to put anonymous criticisms of your boss up on the restroom wall, rather than confronting your boss?

Criticism has its place in the church -- you can take matters up directly with the person with whom you have a problem, or his surrogate. Talking about it anonymously makes you a coward.


I wonder if you are under the impression that Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay are cowards? Or should we just refer to them as "Publius"?


Supreme Court decision Talley v. California


Under our Constitution, anonymous pamphleteering is not a pernicious, fraudulent practice, but an honorable tradition of advocacy and of dissent. Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority. It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights, and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation-and their ideas from suppression-at the hand of an intolerant society. The right to remain anonymous may be abused when it shields fraudulent conduct. But political speech by its nature will sometimes have unpalatable consequences, and, in general, our society accords greater weight to the value of free speech than to the dangers of its misuse.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
_LCD2YOU
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Re: Criticism as a gift

Post by _LCD2YOU »

Moniker wrote:
rcrocket wrote:
Church Mouse wrote:I know I'm not unique in this view, but I haven't seen it expressed this way in this thread yet. Criticism can be a gift to the criticized. It means that someone has given sufficient thought to a person or thing to think about and recommend adjustments. Well-thought-out, constructive criticism is precious. Poorly-thought-out criticism is like a beautifully-wrapped package of dog poop.

I think that it's important when I hear criticism that I evaluate:
* Whether I'm being criticized, or something or someone with whom I affiliate. The two are very different animals, despite how much I root for my favorite sports teams.
* Whether the specific criticism has merit.
* If it has merit, how I can improve on the thing being criticized.

There are some criticisms that deserve consideration... and there are others that don't. I struggle to differentiate sometimes, but I'm improving.


Do you think it honorable to criticize somebody behind their back rather than to their face, to somebody with no power to effect a change in the person being criticized?

Do you think it honorable to use an anonymous name to post public criticism on a telephone pole of a living person with a family and a repuation in that person's neighborhood?

If you work and have a job, do you think it honorable to put anonymous criticisms of your boss up on the restroom wall, rather than confronting your boss?

Criticism has its place in the church -- you can take matters up directly with the person with whom you have a problem, or his surrogate. Talking about it anonymously makes you a coward.
I wonder if you are under the impression that Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay are cowards? Or should we just refer to them as "Publius"?
You forgot Benjamin Franklin who wrote under several names to complain about British laws.
Knowledge is Power
Power Corrupts
Study Hard and
Become EVIL!
_Moniker
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Re: Criticism as a gift

Post by _Moniker »

LCD2YOU wrote:
Moniker wrote:
rcrocket wrote:
Church Mouse wrote:I know I'm not unique in this view, but I haven't seen it expressed this way in this thread yet. Criticism can be a gift to the criticized. It means that someone has given sufficient thought to a person or thing to think about and recommend adjustments. Well-thought-out, constructive criticism is precious. Poorly-thought-out criticism is like a beautifully-wrapped package of dog poop.

I think that it's important when I hear criticism that I evaluate:
* Whether I'm being criticized, or something or someone with whom I affiliate. The two are very different animals, despite how much I root for my favorite sports teams.
* Whether the specific criticism has merit.
* If it has merit, how I can improve on the thing being criticized.

There are some criticisms that deserve consideration... and there are others that don't. I struggle to differentiate sometimes, but I'm improving.


Do you think it honorable to criticize somebody behind their back rather than to their face, to somebody with no power to effect a change in the person being criticized?

Do you think it honorable to use an anonymous name to post public criticism on a telephone pole of a living person with a family and a repuation in that person's neighborhood?

If you work and have a job, do you think it honorable to put anonymous criticisms of your boss up on the restroom wall, rather than confronting your boss?

Criticism has its place in the church -- you can take matters up directly with the person with whom you have a problem, or his surrogate. Talking about it anonymously makes you a coward.
I wonder if you are under the impression that Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay are cowards? Or should we just refer to them as "Publius"?
You forgot Benjamin Franklin who wrote under several names to complain about British laws.


Well, I thought we'd just start with a few. ;) Feel free to add on so that Rcrocket understands what he's advocating. Please see above my edited post on what the Supreme Court says about this matter as well.
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

If you feel good about anonymous posts which hurt people with real names, by all means proceed.
_Church Mouse
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Re: Criticism as a gift

Post by _Church Mouse »

rcrocket wrote:Do you think it honorable to criticize somebody behind their back rather than to their face, to somebody with no power to effect a change in the person being criticized?


Are you speaking of a private citizen, an institution, or a public figure? These would have case-by-case answers, no?
* Private citizen: Absolutely, if I have a problem with Bob, I should discuss it with Bob.
* Institution: It cuts itself off from criticism in most cases; the only way to effectively criticize is publicly or with publicity.
* Public Figure: In most cases, an official has invited criticism through his or her position and supporters. In that situation, it may be appropriate to treat the public official as an institution if they cannot be dealt with on a person-to-person basis.

Do you think it honorable to use an anonymous name to post public criticism on a telephone pole of a living person with a family and a repuation in that person's neighborhood?


I've struggled with that very issue. My next-door-neighbor in my previous home was a convicted child molester, and during his time in our neighborhood he repeated the offense and was sent to jail. Was it my duty to warn my fellow parents in the neighborhood who's children may have been at risk? At least in this case, Utah law is clear: you may not publicize the results of the Utah Sex Offender Registry in any way, including verbally. Although I complied with the law, the subsequent recidivism of the molester troubled me. In this, as in many other things, I do not think there is a clear-cut answer, and it too should be treated on a case-by-case basis.

...do you think it honorable to put anonymous criticisms of your boss up on the restroom wall, rather than confronting your boss?


Isn't that exactly what Martin Luther did in the sixteenth century? If a public notice was the only effective recourse to redress grievances, I think it would be an appropriate course of action to post such notice. Luther was unable to elicit an acceptable response from the Catholic Church for his grievances. He posted his 95 Theses to the Wittenburg church door, and the rest is history. Could it not be said that in the Internet age, discussion forums such as these are the church doors of the twenty-first century?

Criticism has its place in the church -- you can take matters up directly with the person with whom you have a problem, or his surrogate. Talking about it anonymously makes you a coward.


I assume you're not speaking to me when using the term "coward", but using a conversational "you" here? I sign my posts with my real name, and I'm very easy to look up on the Internet. As mentioned at the top of this post, when dealing with an institutional problem, it is often ineffective to attempt to appeal directly to the infringing institution.

What option would you choose to eliminate a social ill that affected you directly, if appeals to the institution which was the source of the problem were ineffective?

I see a tangible social ill in that paying tithes (as a measure of one's obedience) is a prerequisite to receiving salvific ordinances in the temple. One is contingent upon the other, much like the sale of indulgences which so incited Luther.

The result of Luther's effort was the Protestant Reformation, which caused a dramatic and positive improvement in the corruption of the Catholic Church and those schisms which were created in its wake. It is my fond hope that gifts of criticism of corrupt LDS policies might cause similar positive improvement to tangible social ills.
--
Matthew P. Barnson
_skippy the dead
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Post by _skippy the dead »

The Nehor wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote:“Be the change that you want to see in the world.” --Mohandas Gandhi


“Have you had a good bowel movement this morning, sisters?” -Mohandas Gandhi

:-)


C'mon. Time and place, dude.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

rcrocket wrote:If you feel good about anonymous posts which hurt people with real names, by all means proceed.


We all have real names, silly! Am I more hurt if someone uses my real name to hurt me or my "moniker"? It's all pretty much the same. by the way, I think publishing certain things (addresses, contact numbers, etc...) is malicious and have spoken out against it on this board. Yet, criticism of people with "real names" is the hallmark of a free society. If the criticism is true then so what? If the criticism is unjust they can refute it.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

skippy the dead wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote:“Be the change that you want to see in the world.” --Mohandas Gandhi


“Have you had a good bowel movement this morning, sisters?” -Mohandas Gandhi

:-)


C'mon. Time and place, dude.


There's always time and it's always the place for a quick laugh.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_skippy the dead
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Post by _skippy the dead »

The Nehor wrote:
skippy the dead wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Doctor Steuss wrote:“Be the change that you want to see in the world.” --Mohandas Gandhi


“Have you had a good bowel movement this morning, sisters?” -Mohandas Gandhi

:-)


C'mon. Time and place, dude.


There's always time and it's always the place for a quick laugh.


You're assuming it involved a laugh.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
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