Another reason to ask about the Closed Books...

Post by **_Bond...James Bond** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:37 pm

Besides the issues of how much the Church leaders make or don't make and where the money is, an examination of the books could lead many people to believe they don't need to pay tithing because the Church has enough resources to support itself. If the books were opened and it was found that the church has 50 billion in assets or whatever, many people could justify that they don't need to pay tithing when the church has that type of wealth. Furthermore, it would be quite difficult for the Church leadership to tell people they need to pay their tithing because the church needs to meet it's overhead or needs to build more temples or whatever.

Just a thought...

Post by **_charity** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:47 pm

I have always been taught that we give our tithing not for any practical purpose. If the prophet were to say that in the future all moneys that came in from tithing were going to be burned, it wouldn't make a difference.

Those people who stop paying tithing because the Church has enough money, are the same ones who would start smoking if the Church announced we no longer followed the word of wisdom. They would be cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

Post by **_Imwashingmypirate** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:55 pm

No they wouldn't stop paying. Tithes has nothing to do with the church funds. It is between a person and god. It is spiritual NOT temporal.

Post by **_Scottie** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:00 pm

I'm not sure anyone in the church doesn't know that the church is an EXTREMELY wealthy organization already.

It doesn't take a whole lot of math to figure out the minimum coming in is around 5 billion a year in Tithing funds. That doesn't even include assets and side corporations.

I think Charity is right. The temple requirements, I believe, is the main initiative in people paying tithing. That, and the expected blessings from paying them.

Post by **_Sethbag** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:01 pm

It's temporal. Churches need money, so they ask for it. And the cleverer among them make you feel like you should be paying it to them for spiritual reasons. A lot of well-meaning individuals have spent a lot of time and effort finding and explaining justifications for tithing that are based on the spiritual level between the individual and God, but in the end, it's just clever justifications for the church asking for your money.

Post by **_charity** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:14 pm

Sethbag wrote:It's temporal. Churches need money, so they ask for it. And the cleverer among them make you feel like you should be paying it to them for spiritual reasons. A lot of well-meaning individuals have spent a lot of time and effort finding and explaining justifications for tithing that are based on the spiritual level between the individual and God, but in the end, it's just clever justifications for the church asking for your money.

Except that I have had a confirming spiritual witness, that didn't just come from my reasoning powers and justifications.

I think we know that the Church has money. The temple bulding program is one evidence. In many areas of the world, famiilies had to save for years to afford to make one trip to the templ. Now, there are temples on all continents and as numerous as the membership requires.

The expansion of the CES is another. BYU, BYU-I and BYU-H.

In the past, wards had to raise their own funds for maintanance of the building and operating funds. It was called "budget" and was over and above tithing and fast offerings. When our new church meeting house was going to be built, the wards were assessed a certain amount to raise. Our Relief Society had a Christmas Bazaar and Home Tour to raise the $5,000 the Relief Society was expected to raise.

But that changed. Funds for maintainance and operation now are sent to the wards form Sale Lake now, based on attendance. When our stake recently got a new ward building, the funds all came from Salt Lake. That means the Church had some money.

This is not a surprise.

_GoodK · Post by **_GoodK** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:43 pm

charity wrote:
Except that I have had a confirming spiritual witness, that didn't just come from my reasoning powers and justifications.

Almost every person on this planet has experienced this spiritual witness confirming their own unique religious practices. If you were living in Iran, no doubt your spiritual witness would be coming from allah.

I think people pay tithing because church leaders tell them God has commanded it, they aren't worthy to enter the temple if they don't, etc... On second thought, maybe these guys do earn their salaries...

Post by **_Dr. Shades** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:57 pm

Bond...James Bond wrote:. . . an examination of the books could lead many people to believe they don't need to pay tithing because the Church has enough resources to support itself. If the books were opened and it was found that the church has 50 billion in assets or whatever, many people could justify that they don't need to pay tithing when the church has that type of wealth.

I'd say that's not only self-evident but is the main--if not only--reason that the books are closed.

Post by **_charity** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:09 pm

GoodK wrote:

Almost every person on this planet has experienced this spiritual witness confirming their own unique religious practices. If you were living in Iran, no doubt your spiritual witness would be coming from allah.

You are wrong here. Most people do not report having strong religious experiences. If you peruse the anti-Mormon message boards, you will find this a consistent complaint. They only feel emotional highs, like rock concerts, not associated with religion. They then say that this is all that people are reallly experiencing instead of spiritual events.

GoodK wrote:I think people pay tithing because church leaders tell them God has commanded it, they aren't worthy to enter the temple if they don't, etc... On second thought, maybe these guys do earn their salaries...

You can think what you want, but it won't be accurate.

Dr. Shades wrote:
Re: Another reason to ask about the Closed Books...
Bond...James Bond wrote:
. . . an examination of the books could lead many people to believe they don't need to pay tithing because the Church has enough resources to support itself. If the books were opened and it was found that the church has 50 billion in assets or whatever, many people could justify that they don't need to pay tithing when the church has that type of wealth.

I'd say that's not only self-evident but is the main--if not only--reason that the books are closed.

You are of course, entitled to your wrong opinion, just as any one else is. You always have to ask "self-evident to whom?"

Post by **_Inconceivable** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:09 am

I believe the more charitable would rise up in righteous indignation over the pittance the church extends to those in most extreme need. It is shameful.

Like I mentioned before, it can cost as little as .17 a day to feed a starving/dying child. Every imported tile and every brass handle is a testimony to the negligence of those who are entrusted with these sacred funds.