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_Zakuska
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Post by _Zakuska »

truth dancer wrote:Hey Zak... nice to see you! :-)

Here is the thing...

I do not believe there is even one reputable expert, or even one reliable source that claims there were hores in Book of Mormon lands (LGT), during Book of Mormon times. Not one. If there is one please inform us about it. 8)

For Dan to claim that these known recent bones are possible evidence of bones during Book of Mormon times, or to suggest this is so is misleading to say the least. He words his statement carefully, yes, still, he is giving the impression of what is not true. He is using a source that I am pretty sure he knows has been clearly discounted.

I find this tactic disconcerting.

~dancer~


Again TD... according to LIV the particular segment with DAN was recorded 2 years ago. So it would be more on the Shoulders of LIV to fix that. Add an errata section. If more recent information has made the statement wrong. However... that was in the US. These are in the yucatan.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
_skippy the dead
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Post by _skippy the dead »

Zakuska wrote:I see... you want me to check my sources:


Robert T. Hatt
<snip google search link>

Perhaps Ill buy it: $32.00
http://www.gwenfoss.com/bookquestion.asp?book=6000

That seems to be the primary source.
<snip google search link>


It would seem to be the responsible thing. Unless you just want to say that the non-academic clearinghouse known as FARMS has so decreed. But I think that is academically weak.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
_Zakuska
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Post by _Zakuska »

ROFL! You crack me up. :D

Looks like beastie and I are going to need to have a little talk about her web page.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

The report on this work concludes with the observation that "something went on here that is still difficult to explain." Some archaeologists have suggested that the horse bones were stirred upward from lower to higher levels by the action of tunneling rodents, but they admit that this explanation is not easy to accept. The statement has also been made that paleontologists will not be pleased at the idea that horses survived to such a late date as to be involved with civilized or near-civilized people whose remains are seen in the ceramic-using levels.5 Surprisingly, the Mexican researchers show no awareness of the horse teeth discovered in 1957 by Carnegie Institution scientists Pollock and Ray. (Some uncomfortable scientific facts seem to need rediscovering time and time again.)


Zak,

The horse bones were never dated themselves. What was dated was the material around the horse bones. It is not that strange for older artifacts, which were kept as precious objects by people, to be embedded in younger strata.

I linked you to the thread where this was discussed in more detail. But to repeat, the Ray reference is actually talking about equus conversidens, a horse that dates to the Pleistocene era. Yes, indeed, that is "pre-Maya", but it is within the range of already accepted dates of the existence of horses prior to their extinction. And look again at this section from the FARMS article:

In terms of their visible characteristics, those bones should have been classified as from the Pleistocene American horse species, then called Equus occidentalis L. However, Mercer decided that since the remains were near the surface, they must actually be from the modern horse, Equus equus, that the Spaniards had brought with them to the New World, and so he reported them as such.3 In 1947 Robert T. Hatt repeated Mercer's activities. He found within Actun Lara and one other cave more remains of the American horse (in his day it was called Equus conversidens), along with bones of other extinct animals. Hatt recommended that any future work concentrate on Loltun Cave, where abundant animal and cultural remains could be seen.4


Mercer acknowledged that the horse bones looked like equus occidentalis, which is already within the time range for the horse prior to its extinction in the New World. But since it was in a higher level, he decided it "must be" a modern horse. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and conceded that he probably didn't have the benefit of the expertise and knowledge that modern Mesoamericanists now possess, so he was confused by what he had found. But now we understand that Mesoamericans often kept sacred objects - like bones, which sometimes had script written on them - and that these objects could far predate the area in which it was eventually found.

And the next section is even more damning:

Robert T. Hatt repeated Mercer's activities. He found within Actun Lara and one other cave more remains of the American horse (in his day it was called Equus conversidens), along with bones of other extinct animals.


EQUUS CONVERSIDENS dates from the Pleistocene era.

Zak, the problem is that you are so eager to believe, so eager to find evidence that reinforces your belief that you don’t approach texts with enough skepticism to do things like look up EQUUS CONVERSIDENS to figure out when this horse appeared on this continent. At least, I’m guessing that’s what you do, and that’s what the FARMS authors bank on people like you doing, because I can’t figure out how you otherwise find this evidence so impressive.
Last edited by Tator on Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hey Zak... :-)

He found within Actun Lara and one other cave more remains of the American horse (in his day it was called Equus conversidens), along with bones of other extinct animals.


I'm not an expert but... the fact (if it is indeed a fact... smile) that bones of other extinct animals were also found seems significant no? Seems various people could be using bones they gathered of animals long dead. Wouldn't be the first time.

The report on this work concludes with the observation that "something went on here that is still difficult to explain."


Has anyone asked any experts to explain it? I'm guessing it is not that difficult a project. :-)

Showing horses existing with Man, the archeologists are having a hard time explaining it.


What archaeologists? Who have they asked? Again, my guess is it would take an archaeologist about 30 seconds.

Again TD... according to LIV the particular segment with DAN was recorded 2 years ago. So it would be more on the Shoulders of LIV to fix that. Add an errata section. If more recent information has made the statement wrong. However... that was in the US. These are in the yucatan.


I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure that this topic has been completely covered more than two years ago. I find it amazing that Dan and other apologists would not have known this basic information that has been discussed over the years.

Nevertheless, it would be appropriate for Dan to acknowledge that this "evidence" completely misrepresents his claim, and to stop using it, don't you think?


~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Zakuska
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Post by _Zakuska »

Beastie,

All i see is alot of "supposition" on your part. You can do better than the ilaria [sic].

So lets do as you suggested...

Equus Conservedens

According to this... some of them made it to the early Holocene, (10,000 BP-Present) we are pushin 8000 BP for Equus conversidens in some finds.

It also suggests that published works on them "should be re-examined". I wonder why? Are the dates going to be pushed forward even more?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Zak,

The only supposition is that the inhabitants kept an ancient artifact, which was then discovered among later strata. Are you actually suggesting this is a wild supposition? Each reference to the horse in the Ray reference refers to horses from the Pleistocene era. Yes, indeed, this is "precolumbian" and "premayan", but it hardly helps the Book of Mormon.

You linked a lengthy text, and the section you chose about the equus conversidens does not give a "8,000 BP" date. So where are you getting this date, and why do you imagine it helps your case in the first place?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Zakuska
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

Its an image so I can't really copy and paste from it.

Just a minute and I ll see if I can type it in.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Just tell me what page it's on.

by the way, please edit your post with the link, it's so long it widens the page and makes it difficult to read.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Zakuska
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

(pg 291)

Ok the last sentence in the paragraph on the section about the Mexican Horse.
"Records about Equus Conservidens should be reexamined."

On the same page at the bottom...

Terminal Dates for American Equus.

Pashley alberta Canada 8000 bp

Now this finding in the Yucatan... Are they going to push the dates forward even more?
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