Mike Quinn

[_beastie]

So bob, since when did you accept that Gordon has been discredited? You were using him as a source as recently as your blog.

by the way, here's a link to a thread in which the C. Ray reference is debunked:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 764#111764

you can also find it discussed here:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... &start=147

[_rcrocket]

So bob, since when did you accept that Gordon has been discredited? You were using him as a source as recently as your blog.

by the way, here's a link to a thread in which the C. Ray reference is debunked:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... 764#111764

you can also find it discussed here:

http://mormondiscussions.com/discuss/vi ... &start=147

I don't know who is making the statements you quote but I don't see anything refuting Ray's conclusions. It seems you are citing a FARMS article which claims horse finds at 1800 B.C.? Sorry, I just don't get your point.

I think Gordon is reliable but he is generally ignored and has been discredited by most professionals who read him today.

[_beastie]

Oh, so YOU accept Gordon although other scholars discredit him. Thanks for that clarification. So my original point about your shifting standards stands.

The Ray article was actually copied on the link I provided, and it clearly refers to horse species from the PLEISTOCENE era. Yes, that's "precolumbian" and "premayan", but hardly helpful to the Book of Mormon.

[_rcrocket]

Oh, so YOU accept Gordon although other scholars discredit him. Thanks for that clarification. So my original point about your shifting standards stands.

The Ray article was actually copied on the link I provided, and it clearly refers to horse species from the PLEISTOCENE era. Yes, that's "precolumbian" and "premayan", but hardly helpful to the Book of Mormon.

No shifting standards. I accept most of what Quinn says although he has largely been discredited by Mormons. I accept some of what Gordon says -- accept what makes sense. I think it illogical for you to argue that I must accept all of a scholar or nothing. What academic does that? I accept some of Bertrand Russell, the atheist, for some things. I accept Richard Dawkins for some things. You are really thinly read.

Ray article -- your quotes do not equate the Ray find with the Pleistocene era, and I don't really know who is talking in your garbled quote. Your quote does not take the Ray article squarely to task, so your quote just doesn't do it for me.

[_harmony]

But, he hasn't published books of the same caliber as others on Mormonism at academic powerhouses.

Will Bagley -- University of Oklahoma

Dale Morgan -- University of Nebraska

David Bigler -- Utah State University

Juanita Brooks -- Stanford and University of Oklahoma

Leonard Arrington -- University of Illinois

Since when is USU an "academic powerhouse"? They have a decent ice cream shop, but an academic powerhouse???

[_DonBradley]

Good question, Harm.

I wonder if Crocket has noticed that he says Quinn has only published at minor presses like the University of Illinois, not at academic powerhouses like...the University of Illinois.

I suppose it's the nature of twisted thinking to be unable to identify what's wrong with it.

Let's just count our lucky stars.

Don

[_rcrocket]

Good question, Harm.

I wonder if Crocket has noticed that he says Quinn has only published at minor presses like the University of Illinois, not at academic powerhouses like...the University of Illinois.

I suppose it's the nature of twisted thinking to be unable to identify what's wrong with it.

Let's just count our lucky stars.

Don

I take it you are just going to avoid my bolded question above. You anti-Mormons and the chorus you preach to are all the same; a question disturbs you, you just don't answer. Make sure you answer a different question, and avoid and evade. Your cowardice to engage is so transparent, my friend.

[_rcrocket]

But, he hasn't published books of the same caliber as others on Mormonism at academic powerhouses.

Will Bagley -- University of Oklahoma

Dale Morgan -- University of Nebraska

David Bigler -- Utah State University

Juanita Brooks -- Stanford and University of Oklahoma

Leonard Arrington -- University of Illinois

Since when is USU an "academic powerhouse"? They have a decent ice cream shop, but an academic powerhouse???

USU is a great publisher of American Western History. It publishes the prestigious Western Historical Quarterly. It is also one of the premier institutions dealing with economics and western U.S. history. It is a powerhouse in its own realm of scholars interested in western U.S. history.

[_harmony]

Good question, Harm.

I wonder if Crocket has noticed that he says Quinn has only published at minor presses like the University of Illinois, not at academic powerhouses like...the University of Illinois.

I suppose it's the nature of twisted thinking to be unable to identify what's wrong with it.

Let's just count our lucky stars.

Don

I take it you are just going to avoid my bolded question above. You anti-Mormons and the chorus you preach to are all the same; a question disturbs you, you just don't answer. Make sure you answer a different question, and avoid and evade. Your cowardice to engage is so transparent, my friend.

When and how are you going to establish that USU is an academic powerhouse? I'm waiting with bated breath, hanging on every syllable... and I have 12 minutes to go before my next meeting, so I have to do something to pass the time!

[_DonBradley]

It doesn't matter whether I address it or ignore it, Bob. You introduce it with "my issue is...". But, in fact, you keep changing your "issue" as your old issue is discredited.

But, for what it's worth, I don't think either that the concern expressed was a sincere one or that it would have been legitimate if it had been. Academic credibility is established by producing quality work and by publishing at academic presses and (particularly) in peer-reviewed journals. Quinn has published through such venues to the tune of 25 papers and 2 books. That he has additionally published the same academic-grade quality of work (as evidenced by the reviews it receives in academic journals) through a press that specializes in the subject of his work (as academic presses do not) is both unavoidable, given his specialized subject matter, and irrelevant.

One could not name a more prominent biologist than E. O. Wilson. But some of Wilson's recent books have been through such presses as Knopf and W. W. Norton. Has he fallen from academic prominence as a result? Of course not, because that's not how it works. If a sprinter runs in the Olympics, and wins a medal, she or he has, rather clearly, established athletic ability. Does the sprinter then fall from athletic grace and demonstrate a lack of ability by sprinting just as fast on a TV show? Or in race with friends? How about a violinist with a symphony orchestra. Being in the orchestra evidences the violinist's ability. Is the violinist's skill, or the perception of it, downgraded if he or she also plays at a charity benefit? Of course not. Academia isn't somehow entirely different from the rest of life in this way. Academic credibility isn't determined by a magic ratio of one's publications in academic venues and one's publications in other venues. If it were, academics would carefully weed out of their CVs everything they've done outside those venues. A look at the CVs of university professors will show that they don't do this at all.

Your (latest) "issue" has been answered, Bob. You can use all the sophistry you want to claim otherwise, or you can switch to the next "real issue." But what's the difference? Whether you'll admit it or not, there is no evidence that could convince you of Quinn's credibility, because you have made no use of evidence in arriving at your position. Evidence is irrelevant to your faith-based and emotionally-reactive positions. They are evidence-free, and "discussion" with you on them is not only worthless, it's imaginary. You don't really engage either with the evidence or with other discussants.

Don