Mike Quinn

[_DonBradley]

BYU's academic credibility has sure taken a beating from Crocket. It ranks behind virtually every other school where the people can operate a printing press, and doesn't even count as an academic press, based on Crocket's reaction to finding that Quinn published there.

If Crocket's attitude in this discussion is any indication of BYU's academic standing, Daniel Peterson and the other FARMS "scholars" should hang their heads in shame, and Crocket should burn his "diploma."

Don

[_beastie]

Garbled quote from Ray? The thread I linked has an image copy of the actual Ray article.

[_rcrocket]

It doesn't matter whether I address it or ignore it, Bob. You introduce it with "my issue is...". But, in fact, you keep changing your "issue" as your old issue is discredited.

But, for what it's worth, I don't think either that the concern expressed was a sincere one or that it would have been legitimate if it had been. Academic credibility is established by producing quality work and by publishing at academic presses and (particularly) in peer-reviewed journals. Quinn has published through such venues to the tune of 25 papers and 2 books. That he has additionally published the same academic-grade quality of work (as evidenced by the reviews it receives in academic journals) through a press that specializes in the subject of his work (as academic presses do not) is both unavoidable, given his specialized subject matter, and irrelevant.

One could not name a more prominent biologist than E. O. Wilson. But some of Wilson's recent books have been through such presses as Knopf and W. W. Norton. Has he fallen from academic prominence as a result? Of course not, because that's not how it works. If a sprinter runs in the Olympics, and wins a medal, she or he has, rather clearly, established athletic ability. Does the sprinter then fall from athletic grace and demonstrate a lack of ability by sprinting just as fast on a TV show? Or in race with friends? How about a violinist with a symphony orchestra. Being in the orchestra evidences the violinist's ability. Is the violinist's skill, or the perception of it, downgraded if he or she also plays at a charity benefit? Of course not. Academia isn't somehow entirely different from the rest of life in this way. Academic credibility isn't determined by a magic ratio of one's publications in academic venues and one's publications in other venues. If it were, academics would carefully weed out of their CVs everything they've done outside those venues. A look at the CVs of university professors will show that they don't do this at all.

Your (latest) "issue" has been answered, Bob. You can use all the sophistry you want to claim otherwise, or you can switch to the next "real issue." But what's the difference? Whether you'll admit it or not, there is no evidence that could convince you of Quinn's credibility, because you have made no use of evidence in arriving at your position. Evidence is irrelevant to your faith-based and emotionally-reactive positions. They are evidence-free, and "discussion" with you on them is not only worthless, it's imaginary. You don't really engage either with the evidence or with other discussants.

BYU's academic credibility has sure taken a beating from Crocket. It ranks behind virtually every other school where the people can operate a printing press, and doesn't even count as an academic press, based on Crocket's reaction to finding that Quinn published there.

If Crocket's attitude in this discussion is any indication of BYU's academic standing, Daniel Peterson and the other FARMS "scholars" should hang their heads in shame, and Crocket should burn his "diploma."

Don

Really, my opinion of Quinn has nothing to do with my "faith-based" approach (whatever the hell that means) or my own education (as inadequate as it is) or what I think of BYU academia (it got me an education and a living; I can't complain). You can sling insults my way all you'd like, but you just really can't squarely face the problems I'm raising directly. Insult and slander just don't sway me. Your argument is weakened thereby.

And, my issue has been consistent. Dr. Quinn is not well-regarded by those who make hiring decisions at major universities. A simple, supported fact. I don't buy for an instant Scratch's claim that he has been blackballed.

You mention 25 articles in supposed peer-reviewed journals. I have not read all of Dr. Quinn's articles, but 25 is really a very small number for an academic. You might ask our eminent Guy Sajer how many articles he has. I suspect he has exceeded a hundred. The experts I hire and fire usually have over a hundred or two hundred articles in a lifetime as long as Dr. Quinn's. Grant you, I only have five and don't travel in the same stratosphere. But, I think the UoU's Dr. Newman really makes a good point -- Dr. Quinn just isn't adequately published to satisfy a major institution. If he were, he'd have no trouble finding a job.

Regarding Harmony's slur against the USU, I ask her what she thinks of Bigler's Kingdom of the West series or Arrington's Great Basin Kingdom.

rcrocket

[_Dr. Shades]

"Robert Newman, dean of humanities at Utah, says the history department decided against hiring Mr. Quinn because his research presentation wasn't strong enough and most of his books weren't published by university presses."

Let me guess--Robert Newman, the guy who turned down Quinn, is an active Mormon, right?

[_beastie]

Robert Newman, dean of humanities at Utah, says the history department decided against hiring Mr. Quinn because his research presentation wasn't strong enough and most of his books weren't published by university presses. Utah eventually downgraded the opening to an assistant professorship and filled it with an active Mormon church member.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/wsj_quinn.shtml

It would be interesting to know the name of the person who was hired, and that individual's resume as well.

[_harmony]

But, he hasn't published books of the same caliber as others on Mormonism at academic powerhouses.

Will Bagley -- University of Oklahoma

Dale Morgan -- University of Nebraska

David Bigler -- Utah State University

Juanita Brooks -- Stanford and University of Oklahoma

Leonard Arrington -- University of Illinois

Since when is USU an "academic powerhouse"? They have a decent ice cream shop, but an academic powerhouse???

USU is a great publisher of American Western History. It publishes the prestigious Western Historical Quarterly. It is also one of the premier institutions dealing with economics and western U.S. history. It is a powerhouse in its own realm of scholars interested in western U.S. history.

That is not what you said, Crock. Let me quote you, so you don't get lost:

But, he hasn't published books of the same caliber as others on Mormonism at academic powerhouses.

You didn't say "powerhouse in its own realm of scholars interested in western US history". You said "academic powerhouses". Heck, even BYU is an academic powerhouse in its own realm of scholars interested in... something (engineering? computers? law? certainly not agriculture, but we can't all be perfect). I don't think USU qualifies as an "academic powerhouse" like Stanford, which is bonafide powerhouse.

Try to lose the hyperbole. Someone here will always call you on it.

[_DonBradley]

If one looks at the output of scholarly work from Signature Books, including standard reference works on Mormonism held by the academic libraries, one would find that it is "a powerhouse in its own realm of scholars interested in Mormon history."

Don

[_CaliforniaKid]

If one looks at the output of scholarly work from Signature Books, including standard reference works on Mormonism held by the academic libraries, one would find that it is "a powerhouse in its own realm of scholars interested in Mormon history."

Exactly what I was thinking.

[_rcrocket]

I also suspect that Dr. Quinn's UofI publication was a vanity publication; it accepts for publication self-funded works frequently. Somebody look in the flyleaf and see if UoI has a disclaimer of Dr. Quinn's funding.

[_rcrocket]

You didn't say "powerhouse in its own realm of scholars interested in western US history". You said "academic powerhouses". Heck, even BYU is an academic powerhouse in its own realm of scholars interested in... something (engineering? computers? law? certainly not agriculture, but we can't all be perfect). I don't think USU qualifies as an "academic powerhouse" like Stanford, which is bonafide powerhouse.

Try to lose the hyperbole. Someone here will always call you on it.

Dr. Quinn hasn't even published any book at any university on any Mormon or Western American History subject outside of BYU.