Another reason to ask about the Closed Books...

[_Moniker]

Why is spiritualism in any way correlated to religion? And if it is then why can it not be pinpointed to one religion? Wouldn't that suggest that it is more of a human condition rather than aligned with any religion or religion in general?

[_charity]

I have also given plenty of reasons why your statement that MOST people on the planet have religious experiences the same as LDS. 20% report they are not religious at all. Half of those left don't even go to church all that often. Your MOST is a small number.

Actually, I made that statement.
And you haven't given any reasons.

Then you aren't reading. If you want to talk in non-religious terms, Maslow wrote about what he called "peak exper8iences." These were useful in his theory to determine whether or not all the needs were being met. If they were the person could then experience "peak experiences."

In Maslow's view, a small percentage of people experienced these. And even so, having experienced them myself as described by Maslow, I can tell you they are not comparable to "spiritual experiences."

Just because a (nameless) poll says that 20% of people aren't religious, does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that they cannot and do not have spiritual experiences (which you are calling religious experiences).

That is what we are talking about, as differentiated from patriotic feelings, good music, etc.

Religion -specifically the one started by Joseph Smith Jr.- is not unique in relying on or attempting to facilitate spiritual experiences. And are you saying people can only experience spiritual experiences in a church building? Or if they go to church that often. ?

Religion, specifically the one restored by God through Joseph Smith, Jr. is not unique in encouraging people to seek for spiritual experiences. What a silly thing it would be any LDS to say that such experiences occur only in church buildings. Let's see: the Sacred Grove, the banks of the Susquahannah River, Fishing River, etc. People who demonstrate religious committment by attending church, which ever one, would more likely be in a place to experience the Holy Ghost. Much better in a church than at a race track or in a strip joint.

I thought the reference to Islam, which is allegedly the fastest growing religion on the planet, was quite appropriate. These people aren't having a spiritual confirmation of the truth of their prophet?

I have never heard a Muslim describe a witness from the Holy Ghost. People can join groups, even religious groups, and not have a spiritual witness that they must do so. I had a roomate in college who was a dedicated Delta Gamma. You would not believe what she went through to get into DG's. But she never said God told her it was the right sorority.

[_charity]

Why is spiritualism in any way correlated to religion? And if it is then why can it not be pinpointed to one religion? Wouldn't that suggest that it is more of a human condition rather than aligned with any religion or religion in general?

As part of the human condition, we are given the Light of Christ. As part of the human condition, we are given the opportunity to experience the witness of the Holy Ghost. These are independent of any membership in a church.

[_sunstoned]

I have always been taught that we give our tithing not for any practical purpose. If the prophet were to say that in the future all moneys that came in from tithing were going to be burned, it wouldn't make a difference.

especially if you payed by check.

[_charity]

I have always been taught that we give our tithing not for any practical purpose. If the prophet were to say that in the future all moneys that came in from tithing were going to be burned, it wouldn't make a difference.

especially if you payed by check.

Reminds me of the story of the three televangelists who meet at a retreat and as they sit around relaxing, one asks the others how he decides how much of what the congregation gives goes to the Lord and how much does he keep for his own salary.

The first one says, "I take all the money collected and throw it up into the air. If the bills fall with the face side down, I figure that's the money the Lord wants."

The second one says, "I do the same thing, only I think the ones that fall face side up belong to the Lord."

As they are musing over that, the second asks the third one, "What do you do?"

"I throw the money up in the air, and I figure if the Lord wants any of it, He can take it."

[_ludwigm]

Why is spiritualism in any way correlated to religion? And if it is then why can it not be pinpointed to one religion? Wouldn't that suggest that it is more of a human condition rather than aligned with any religion or religion in general?

As part of the human condition, we are given the Light of Christ. As part of the human condition, we are given the opportunity to experience the witness of the Holy Ghost. These are independent of any membership in a church.

What about non-christians (moslems, buddhists, taoists, any-ists) who - apparently - are not given the Light of Christ?
What about people who have not conditioned to experience the witness of the Holy Ghost, because they don't know this notion, even this word?
These concepts are far from independence of any membership in any church. They are church-dependent. Hardwired ones. (Sorry for computer-slang expression!)

[_harmony]

Metallicas "Fade to Black" has a great false spirit to it as well. :D

Black Velvet by Berlin. Now there's a song with chills down the spine incorporated.

[_charity]

What about non-christians (moslems, buddhists, taoists, any-ists) who - apparently - are not given the Light of Christ?
What about people who have not conditioned to experience the witness of the Holy Ghost, because they don't know this notion, even this word?
These concepts are far from independence of any membership in any church. They are church-dependent. Hardwired ones. (Sorry for computer-slang expression!)

"We" means ALL of us humans. Muslims, buddhists, taosits, any-its, are given the light of Christ. Every one born here. A person does not have to be conditioned. They experience it. It is the basic understanding of right and wrong, called the conscience. All have that. Independent of any church membership or teachings.

[_harmony]

Charity, I'm not sure anyone has said they feel it during a "rock concert".

Many have said they have felt it while listening to uplifting music. Or the national anthem. But rock music??

Of course not. God loves country music.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason, you don't think that "almost every person on the planet" is an exaggeration? About 20% of the population reports themselves as "non-religious." Less than 50% of the remaining 80% who consider themselves "religious" have gone to church in the past week. So the "almsot every person the planet" seems a tad bit high, don't you think?

Charity. She was using hyperbole to make a point. Of course she did not mean EVERY PERSON. But she did mean a whole bunch of people have experiences that they think is confirming their brand of truth. And I think you knew this because you said that their experiences are more like emotions from an exciting football game. In other words you dismiss others witnessed.

And of course, other people besides LDS can have a witness from the Holy Ghost. If they couldn't, the promise in Mormoni 10:4 wouldn't work.

Can you miss the point this badly? What their witness says is they are right and you are wrong. Spiritual witnesses are totally subjective to the person receiving them. So why does yours and any other LDS witness Trump?