Con Artists and Knowing the Source of Claims

[_Some Schmo]

Hey TD,

It really is an interesting topic (what makes people believe in the face of overwhelming evidence).

It's been my experience that what matters is "the point of sale" (sales people sometimes refer to the moment when a person is convinced that what's being sold is for them as the real point of sale, not when they actually hand over their credit card). If, at some point, a person "buys" whatever is being sold, then they've been hooked. They identify with the product (for whatever reason) and it becomes a part of who they are. They will then go to great lengths to defend that psychological "purchase" which was generally made with a significant absence of important information.

Nobody likes to admit they were had. That's why people will defend a scam artist they believe in, like all the Mormon believers who will continue to defend Joe Smith till they die.

[_Ray A]

We humans want to believe certain things. We have a way of discounting reality for belief.

I truly find the phenomenon of belief more than fascinating, to say the least.


~dancer~

I completely agree, TD. I continually annoy friends and relatives by exposing sham emails, and I'm annoying for being a "demythologiser". The feel good emails are often ridden with errors, or just blatantly false. After a while I realised that my "hobby" was achieving nothing, other than making me look like a killjoy. They just wanted to "feel good", and most were not concerned about accuracy, and some of them told me this. Hint: "Don't spoil the party. We don't care." If the circulating emails are of a serious nature, or claiming "fact" (not just "feel good"), I'll invest a lot of time checking those facts.

If you'd like a good book to read on the subject of "cons" and "schemes", I recommend Louise Samways, Dangerous Persuaders.

http://culticstudiesreview.org/csr_bkre ... uaders.htm

[_Sethbag]

I don't know much about the drinking of colloidal silver, and I do laugh along with everyone else about the smurf people who got too much silver in their skin, but one thing needs to be clarified: silver actually does have antibiotic properties, and real medical companies are using silver in real medical products used by real doctors in real hospitals. The biggest example is probably bandages laced with some form of silver, used on burns. Check out this article on a company selling silver-impregnated bandages for example. Silver is one of those things where there's actually some truth to it, but the conspiracy and whacko nutjobs have gotten a hold of it and pushed it way out beyond what it ought to be.

My wife has spent tens of thousands of dollars buying Sunrider herbal products since we got married. I shudder to think how much better our financial situation might be if not for all that money down the toilet. But when you talk to her and my mother-in-law and other relatives about it, they get quasi-religious in their descriptions and testimonies about it. Granted, I do like drinking this one herbal drink they sell, but I am under no illusions that it's actually healthful.

One scam I saw and experienced first hand in New Hampshire about three or four years ago was this company selling magnet products. They had all sorts of products with magnets in them. The magnets were supposed to cure your illnesses, make you healthier, more energetic, you name it. They had inserts for your shoes with magnets in them, bracelets and necklaces. They had a thing you'd pass water through that exposed the water to magnetic fields, so you were drinking magnet-treated water. They had a freaking bed cover, for God's sake, with magnets in it so you'd be sleeping in a magnetic field.

There was a couple in our ward who had a business selling these products and signing up wardmembers in an MLM structure doing the same. My wife actually bought the inserts for the shoes, and borrowed a necklace for a time. One wardmember family that I recall really gulped down the Cool Aid, even buying the water treatment device and the magnetic mattress pad. I did not endear myself to anyone in that crowd by calling b***s*** on the whole thing.

They had this little device that was supposed to really impress people. It was measuring the "magnetic energy" put off by their products. The device was nothing more than a coil hooked up to a transistor. When waved in front of their magnet products, a voltage was induced in the coil. This voltage was sufficient to turn on a transistor that let current flow from a battery in the device to a light bulb. I could have made one of these in five minutes with a soldering iron and a couple of cheap components. All it proved was the presence of a magnetic field. But the magnet company people used it to awe their marks with some BS about magnetic energy. I went to a presentation they held where they got several dozen people to show up and be wowed with their claims and testimonials. I actually raised my hand and made some objections about what they were saying, on a scientific basis, and pointed out the operating principle behind their magnetic energy detector and what it actually was doing, and they weren't well pleased. Ironically, and typically, the rest of the audience weren't pleased either. They were apparently just as eager to be sucked into the fantasy as the magnet sellers were to suck them in, and suck them dry. I was there spoiling the party.[/url]

[_JAK]

Last night while walking on my treadmill, I found an infomercial selling books on natural cures for all sorts of illnesses.

Kevin Trudeau, author of these books was making some pretty amazing claims. He was giving away two books, only charging shipping and handling costs. It was quite a sell to say the least.

I got curious and wondered what was going on, who would believe him, and if any of his claims were true.

As it turns out, this "expert" on natural health has quite a past... He has been in all sorts of trouble, preying on the vulnerable.

A huge con artist to say the least.

I visited a message board with Trudeau as the topic. Many of the posts sound like what one would find on a religious MB. Feelings of anger, frustration, guilt, stupidity... right along with devotion, admiration, and praise. Many people are huge fans of this guy. He has sold millions and millions of books. And, there are many who have been ripped off and seriously hurt.

It got me thinking....

Isn't it important to know the background of someone who is making some serious claims? Wouldn't it be advisable to study up about a person prior to investing one's time or money in their claims? Shouldn't a person's track record play a part in trust?

Why do some people follow Trudeau and believe all his claims and others can see right through him? This guy uses his run-ins with the law as proof that he is on to the truth. He twists and contorts and justifies and denies reality and yet some still believe him.

How is it that people can overlook all sorts of problematic information so easily? How is it that people will believe the most ridiculous things even from a not-so-great man?

Belief is an amazing phenomenon to say the least. 8)

If you want to see Trudeau at work, check out this video clip from 20/20. The guy is slick... He can rationalize and justify ANYTHING 8) Even when he is caught flat out lying he finds a way to excuse it. Amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN5ihrECJms

~dancer~

Perhaps we have a range of people from those who are hard wired to believe the most ridiculous to those who are also hard wired to ask questions and to be skeptical.

Sometimes we find a 4 year-old who continually asks: Why? An answer even well stated and solid in information produces another: Why? Assuming the child is not merely trying to be difficult, we have an inquiring mind. Such children often mature to be engineers or other professionals who pursue many ideas with that inquiring mind. Perhaps they are genetically hard wired to think, to question.

By contrast, we find children who are never a problem. But, they don’t think. They believe without question what they are told. So long as they have ethical people telling them, they may do well.

Since we have a “range,” we have people (adults) who are thinkers and others who are non-thinkers, we have some who will believe the most ridiculous, irrational claims (such as your link demonstrates). With the extremes, there are many who fall somewhere in the middle perhaps toward one end or toward the other.

Advertisers do not want people to think. The more phony their product or claim, the less thinking they want. Without doubt, religion and religious organizations do not favor thinking.

TD, you are correct and a thinker in the questions raised in this post. You are not the kind of person that General Motors wants to push GM vehicles only. You might find information which does not confirm the group-think mentality required to be a GM only person.

The “why” to your questions may well be from one or both of the two factors which act on individuals: environment and heredity.

If it’s correct that some individuals tend to be hard wired in the direction of thinking and questioning and others tend to be hard wired in the opposite direction, follow the rules, do what they are told – if that is correct, it may account for the extreme gullibility implicit in your characterization of some individuals.

The people at greatest risk are those who do the least thinking. Conversely, those at least risk are those who do the most thinking.

People like Trudeau present a clear and certain danger to anyone who tends to accept mindlessly a persuasive sales job.

But you are correct, there are many people who will believe that which is most absurd, unreasoned, and lacks reliable evidence.

JAK

[_Gadianton]

One scam I saw and experienced first hand in New Hampshire about three or four years ago was this company selling magnet products.

Oh no, not the magnets. At a job I had years ago, one of the guys who worked there got into that. These weren't hidden though, he'd walk in like a clown with magnets velcro'd all over his body. He was an intelligent guy, but with a family he wasn't making enough to deck out in magnets like that on the off chance it would do something for him. No one expressed any interest in them, other than to make fun of him, he didn't seem to be getting any healthier, and eventually he just got fired, so apparently they didn't make him a better worker either. But I'm sure there was some intangible benefit to them, that made it all worth it. Kind of like when you're down to your last hotdog, but can look in the mirror and say, "I paid my tithing". He was also LDS so was getting double scammed.

One thing that is very interesting about the huge MLM successes in recruiting Mormons, is that how it implies, contrary to what Mormons report, that they aren't nearly as satisfied by blessings or intangibles the "gospel" brings so they respond well to the next big promise. But as they've been conditioned all too well, they get robbed again but find the ability to maintain belief. It's taking the idea of making the same mistakes over and over again to the next level.

[_Inconceivable]

There is much in common between the Mormon church and MLM:

1) You have no idea what you have been invited to until after you have heard several testimonies.

2) They destroy faith in what you have previously placed your hope in.

3) Even the biggest loser can be successful, that usually means you

4) The upline is your line of authority. There will always be someone above you. Always.

5) You are asked to give names of all you are associated with so they can be converted as well

6) You are strongly encouraged to buy heavily into the product to demonstrate to others you believe in it. Prices are overinflated and front loaded.

7) The organization weeds you from your friends, relatives and associates by prostlyting them.

8 ) Your previous associates now avoid you. You now have a new family/community.

9) It's all about growing and supporting the family/community

10) The upline lives an envyable life, they are respected and reverenced for their miraculous success

11) If you become disaffected, you are summarily abondoned - referred to as those that could not handle it (see #3). Causing at least temporary embarrasment, diminished self esteem, anger, depression, humiliation or even betrayal.

12) If disaffected, you are left to crawl back toward your old life only to fear that maybe you have all but destroyed the bridge that leads to it.

13) Those few that find miraculous success in the organization eventually realize that, inspite of its outward appearance to build, the organization has destroyed and forgotten many in the process that have brought you to where you are now.

14) With few exeptions, the organization is based in Utah and/or run by Mormons.

15) Both boast the rumor of a General Authority somewhere in the upline

16) Those that do leave eventually realize that Life is Beautiful and much greener from whence they came.

[_Some Schmo]

There is much in common between the Mormon church and MLM:

1) You have no idea what you have been invited to until after you have heard several testimonies.

2) They destroy faith in what you have previously placed your hope in.

3) Even the biggest loser can be successful, that usually means you

4) The upline is your line of authority. There will always be someone above you. Always.

5) You are asked to give names of all you are associated with so they can be converted as well

6) You are strongly encouraged to buy heavily into the product to demonstrate to others you believe in it. Prices are overinflated and front loaded.

7) The organization weeds you from your friends, relatives and associates by prostlyting them.

8 ) Your previous associates now avoid you. You now have a new family/community.

9) It's all about growing and supporting the family/community

10) The upline lives an envyable life, they are respected and reverenced for their miraculous success

11) If you become disaffected, you are summarily abondoned - referred to as those that could not handle it (see #3). Causing at least temporary embarrasment, diminished self esteem, anger, depression, humiliation or even betrayal.

12) If disaffected, you are left to crawl back toward your old life only to fear that maybe you have all but destroyed the bridge that leads to it.

13) Those few that find miraculous success in the organization eventually realize that, inspite of its outward appearance to build, the organization has destroyed and forgotten many in the process that have brought you to where you are now.

14) With few exeptions, the organization is based in Utah and/or run by Mormons.

15) Both boast the rumor of a General Authority somewhere in the upline

16) Those that do leave eventually realize that Life is Beautiful and much greener from whence they came.

Excellent list, but you forgot a most important one: the meetings have a very similar feel about them.

When I was a young man trying to find my way and figuring out what I wanted to do, yes, I admit it: I tried Amway. The thing that eventually put me off was travelling to a neighboring city for an Amway convention. The whole thing had the atmosphere of a sort of youth conference, which I might have been able to forgive, but when they had the entire auditorium stand up, hold hands and sing... well, that was it for me. That's not business; that's frickin' church.

*puke*

[_wenglund]

I'm kind of wondering if the motive here is that Mormonism should also be "exposed" as a "scam"?

Hi Ray...

No, my motive is just to explore belief.

We humans want to believe certain things. We have a way of discounting reality for belief.

I truly find the phenomenon of belief more than fascinating, to say the least.

I think there is a lot more to belief than just wanting to believe, having faith in something, or even trusting.

I'm off to work.. I'll check in later! :)

~dancer~

What are your thoughts about the New Age movement and products? Just curious.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_truth dancer]

Hi JAK....

Perhaps we have a range of people from those who are hard wired to believe the most ridiculous to those who are also hard wired to ask questions and to be skeptical.

I have for some time now, come to believe that there is a hard-wiring to belief. Mainly because of books like, Ramanchandran's, Phantoms in the Brain, and others that discuss the neurology of belief.

I hadn't thought about the idea of a hard wiring for questioning, wondering, believing, and accepting.

As I have contemplated this idea, I do think you may be on to something. There are certainly those who can't stop asking questions, who like to explore, who question and wonder about everything. And, there are those who seem to accept and believe more easily.

I wonder if those who believe easily are those who need a more clear picture of life? In other words, they (or at least their ancestors), survived better by having answers, (true or not). Maybe they were able to use more energy for survival by trusting others rather than finding their own answers? And, maybe there are others who survive better exploring and NOT trusting? Maybe their ancestors enjoyed the discovery and contemplation?

Hmmm just wondering out loud here... thanks for your insights on this!

~dancer~

[_wenglund]

There is much in common between the Mormon church and MLM:

1) You have no idea what you have been invited to until after you have heard several testimonies.

2) They destroy faith in what you have previously placed your hope in.

3) Even the biggest loser can be successful, that usually means you

4) The upline is your line of authority. There will always be someone above you. Always.

5) You are asked to give names of all you are associated with so they can be converted as well

6) You are strongly encouraged to buy heavily into the product to demonstrate to others you believe in it. Prices are overinflated and front loaded.

7) The organization weeds you from your friends, relatives and associates by prostlyting them.

8 ) Your previous associates now avoid you. You now have a new family/community.

9) It's all about growing and supporting the family/community

10) The upline lives an envyable life, they are respected and reverenced for their miraculous success

11) If you become disaffected, you are summarily abondoned - referred to as those that could not handle it (see #3). Causing at least temporary embarrasment, diminished self esteem, anger, depression, humiliation or even betrayal.

12) If disaffected, you are left to crawl back toward your old life only to fear that maybe you have all but destroyed the bridge that leads to it.

13) Those few that find miraculous success in the organization eventually realize that, inspite of its outward appearance to build, the organization has destroyed and forgotten many in the process that have brought you to where you are now.

14) With few exeptions, the organization is based in Utah and/or run by Mormons.

15) Both boast the rumor of a General Authority somewhere in the upline

16) Those that do leave eventually realize that Life is Beautiful and much greener from whence they came.

I suppose if one is intent on stereotyping the Church and its members (for whatever reason), your list will work as well as any. Perhaps it reflects your mentality while a member, but it isn't even remotely close to my LDS experience. But I guess to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-