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[_Zakuska]

I just re read it on page 263... its the same cave but mercer only did a surface dig down to 10 cm. then hatt came in and dug in the area but not the same cave. Then apparently Schmidt came in in the 1970 and 1980 and did the 16 layer dig... but your book cuts off.

[Tator]

We already have Schmidt.

From the same book, page 265:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... dq=schmidt
+%2B+cave+%2B+ice+age&lr=&sig=MI44Kp38LZY3lIbdt59axYxgiXQ#PPA265,M1

Stratigraphic and chronological sequences for the excavated units were established, but contradictory data from the field notes imply possible mixing of biological and cultural remains. The sequence as reported is as follows (Schmidt 1988)

1. Levels I through VII are from the Ceramic stage, but extinct animal remains occur at the bottom of Level VII.
2. Level VIII represents the preceramic stage, including some lithic elements and extinct fauna. The boundary between the Pleistocene or the Holocene may be located here or at the bottom of Level VII.

Pleistocene era dates:

The Pleistocene epoch (IPA: /'plaɪstəsi:n/) on the geologic timescale is the period from 1,808,000 to 11,550 years BP. The Pleistocene epoch had been intended to cover the world's recent period of repeated glaciations. The name pleistocene is derived from the Greek πλεῖστος (pleistos "most") and καινός (kainos "new").

The Pleistocene epoch follows the Pliocene epoch and is followed by the Holocene epoch. The Pleistocene is the third epoch of the Neogene period or 6th epoch of the Cenozoic Era.[1] The end of the Pleistocene corresponds with the end of the Paleolithic age used in archaeology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleistocene

[_beastie]

You didn't but critics do. and have. I've seen it on a regular basis esp Re DCP.

Well, then, I suggest you take it up with the critics who DO and HAVE, and not me.

[_Zakuska]

Yes and levels 2 through 5 are where the 1800BC carbon dating comes from. And is where all the contraversy is. Until the bones that where found in those levels are carbon dated... the scientists are still assuming.

And did you notice the carbon date on that page> 3800 BP +/- 150 years?

So it looks like Soreson wasn't making it up. ;)

Care to retract you besmerching of him?

[_skippy the dead]

Is this posting from MAD really an accurate summary of this thread?

Well thanks to our friend beastie on MormonDiscussions... Sorensons/Farms sources are confirmed... In a reputable Science Journal...

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... #PPA265,M1

Notice the 3800 BP +/- (1800BC) Carbon date of the find!

Dangit... now the link isn't working... but its in that book on page 265!

[_Zakuska]

Skippy... I find it defeningly silent in here... All the critics where cackling at Farms and Sorenson for making things up and now... when a critic actually finds the information and verifies it... it goes silent. Whats up with that?

I think Im going to save this entire thread and share some high lights with MAD. :ROFL:

[_CaliforniaKid]

Skippy... I find it defeningly silent in here... All the critics where cackling at Farms and Sorenson for making things up and now... when a critic actually finds the information and verifies it... it goes silent. Whats up with that?

I think I'm going to save this entire thread and share some high lights with MAD. :ROFL:

Zak,

It's one-thirty AM. Beastie went to bed. I was doing homework. I just posted on MADB. Go read it.

Sleep well, my friend.

-Chris

[_beastie]

Chris was correct, I was in bed. I live on the east coast, and it's rare for me to post after 10 PM my time. And unless I have a different work schedule for some reason, I usually only post briefly in the mornings, not at all during the work day. When I return home from work in the late afternoon, I will begin more serious posting.

Now, if I had been here, you would not have heard deafening silence, you would have heard a monstrous scooby-doo HUNH????

Seriously, WTF???

I will come back later today, after work, and put together one post with all the sources tied together, but in the meantime, I gotta say, talk about snatching (imaginary) victory from the jaws of defeat!!

The same source you claim verifies (?!?!?!?!) Sorenson's claims also specifically stated that extinct animals were NOT intermingled with ceramics and that Level VII is Pleistocene!!

The horse remains that were found ABOVE Level VII were the ones that turned out to be modern, Zak. Remember that reference?

(past post)

Yes, I was correct. It's this reference:

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... ns&source=
web&ots=fgCOKY7ncX&sig=XA2goBoYAZ7_Z65EyGj6-hr1Knw#PPA263,M1

Quote:
Henry C. Mercer (1896), who explored the cave and dug 2 pits in Chamber 3 in 1895, found similar ceramic and nonceramic layers. His attempt to locate preceramic artifacts with extinct fauna in association with Loltun or other nearby caves was unsuccessful. Some skeletal remains dubiously identified as Ursus (bear) were found in Loltun in a ceramic layer. Mercer reported the presence of Equus (horse) teeth and bones on the surface of three different caves. Although similar to the extinct horse Equus Occidentalis, the remains were identified as modern horse.



So forget the Mercer bones, they are debunked.

And, by the way, my statement about Sorenson was simply that you cannot trust his summary of any source. Yes, there is one time he just made it up, but usually he just distorts what the source says - kind of like you, Zak, in your MAD post.

Anyway, like I said, I will pull all this together later this afternoon, and I certainly hope you post that on MAD as well.

[_beastie]

I also have to state that it's extraordinarily misleading of you to claim my sources "confirmed" Sorenson's claims, even if you ignore the BOTTOM LAYER and the other citations from the same source, while "mysteriously" forgetting to mention how the same source DEBUNKED Sorenson's claims as well.

You have to remember why Schmidt is your last great hope, Zak. The other ones have already been blown out of the water.

As will Schmidt be.

[Guest]

A beastie... you're jumping to conclusions again...

-The horse remains that truned out to be "modern horse" where on the surface.

Henry C. Mercer (1896), who explored the cave and dug two pits in chamber 3 in 1895, found similar ceramic and nonceramic layers. His attempt to lcate preceramic artifacts with extinct fuana in association at Loltun or other nearby caves was unsuceesful. Some skeletal remains dubiously identified as Ursus (bear) were found in loltun in a ceramic layer. Mercer reported the presence of Equus (horse) teeth and bones on the surface in three caves. Although similair to the extinct horse Equus occidentalis, the remains were identified as modern horse. Cope (1896) studied the remains of other animals collected by Mercer in Lotun, including species of opossums, bats, rabbit, mice, peccary, and deer in two sizes.

Mercer only dug in "Chamber 3". There are more chambers in the cave. Which chamber did Schmidt dig in?

Also when they say "modern" what does that mean? 10,000BP - Present or Spanish Conquest - Present?

They are assuming the Spanish "Reintroduced species" how can they prove that with any certianty? How do we know that other "sea voyages" didn't reintroduce it Unless they carbon date it?

Schmidt found horse remains - Not on the surface. They where in layers 2-5, and mixed with the ceramics.