From the Archives: Scott Cho and "Loopholes"

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_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

Dr. Shades wrote:
The Nehor wrote:Where are the smilies???? SHADES!?!?!!?!?!?? :)


You got them eliminated, remember?


I'm coming after you, Nehor...and when I find you, you're gonna BLEEEEEEEED!!! ;)

Family Guy/Bad Roaches

Hey man I cut you....I cut you up so bad....you gon...you gonna wish I no cut you up so bad....
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

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_Scottcho
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Post by _Scottcho »

When I first started to ask this about the baby killing and the guaranteed access to celestial kingdom, I was under the impression that one could rise up in the celestial kingdom even though one may start from the very bottom of its three tier system. Since then, I was kindly informed that that is not true. Apparently, one cannot move past through the three levels of celestial kingdom, ie if a baby is killed and sent to the lowest level of celestial kingdom, that baby cannot progress to the highest glory to attain divinity. Assuming that killed babies are sent to the lowest kingdom, I'm now not so certain if such an act of 'sacrifice' by the murderer is best for the child. Of course, even if the child lives, most likely he or she will not make to the highest of the three level to become a deity. However, taking that chance right away and sending them to the lowest level of celestial glory might not be the preferred path of eternity.

So I guess another question from all this is, is it better to have your shot at the highest glory when the likely hood of making it is very slim, or settle for the third best (lowest level of celestial kingdom) and get that guaranteed access?
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Scottcho wrote:When I first started to ask this about the baby killing and the guaranteed access to celestial kingdom, I was under the impression that one could rise up in the celestial kingdom even though one may start from the very bottom of its three tier system. Since then, I was kindly informed that that is not true. Apparently, one cannot move past through the three levels of celestial kingdom


I don't think that's true. I believe that you can move from the lower level of the c-kingdom to the upper level. This is how people who die without ever getting married still have a chance. You can only make it to the top by being married. If you didn't have that chance in this life, then you're given that chance in the next life.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Scottcho
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Post by _Scottcho »

Ya, that's what I thought too, but in the D&C it says you cannot move up the tiers within each kingdom. I forget which verse it was, if I find it again I'll post it.
_Scottcho
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Post by _Scottcho »

Here it is. DnC 131:1-4 which states that the celestial kingdom has 3 levels and the verse 4 indicates that one cannot increase through the other levels.
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Scottcho wrote:When I first started to ask this about the baby killing and the guaranteed access to celestial kingdom, I was under the impression that one could rise up in the celestial kingdom even though one may start from the very bottom of its three tier system. Since then, I was kindly informed that that is not true. Apparently, one cannot move past through the three levels of celestial kingdom, ie if a baby is killed and sent to the lowest level of celestial kingdom, that baby cannot progress to the highest glory to attain divinity. Assuming that killed babies are sent to the lowest kingdom, I'm now not so certain if such an act of 'sacrifice' by the murderer is best for the child. Of course, even if the child lives, most likely he or she will not make to the highest of the three level to become a deity. However, taking that chance right away and sending them to the lowest level of celestial glory might not be the preferred path of eternity.

So I guess another question from all this is, is it better to have your shot at the highest glory when the likely hood of making it is very slim, or settle for the third best (lowest level of celestial kingdom) and get that guaranteed access?


This is my understanding. After the judgement, which is considerably after we leave this life, there is no moving from one kingdom up to another, or down either, for that matter.

However, during the time between death and judgement, there is time for changes to be made. Proxy work can be done for individuals who did not have the opportunity to do it for themselves.

Now, about children who die before 8 going to the Celestial Kingdom.

1. Age of accountability and age 8 aren't necessarily exactly on. The age of accountability is reached when the person has the capacity to undestand right from wrong. That has been stated to be age 8. But that doesn't mean that the day before his/her 8th birthday the child isn't accountable, and the day of suddenly becomes accountable. God knows when the person attains accountability.

2. It is true that children who died ealry, without the opportunity to marry, would never reach exaltation. Parent with children who died worried about that. There were even times when two sets of parents would have their children sealed to each other in order to insure that they would be married. You have a son who died, you found somebody who had a daughter that died, and voilia. A married couple. That practice was halted. There will be time during the millenium to take care of such things, when these individuals can make their own choice.
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

Scottcho wrote:When I first started to ask this about the baby killing and the guaranteed access to celestial kingdom, I was under the impression that one could rise up in the celestial kingdom even though one may start from the very bottom of its three tier system. Since then, I was kindly informed that that is not true. Apparently, one cannot move past through the three levels of celestial kingdom, ie if a baby is killed and sent to the lowest level of celestial kingdom, that baby cannot progress to the highest glory to attain divinity. Assuming that killed babies are sent to the lowest kingdom, I'm now not so certain if such an act of 'sacrifice' by the murderer is best for the child. Of course, even if the child lives, most likely he or she will not make to the highest of the three level to become a deity. However, taking that chance right away and sending them to the lowest level of celestial glory might not be the preferred path of eternity.

So I guess another question from all this is, is it better to have your shot at the highest glory when the likely hood of making it is very slim, or settle for the third best (lowest level of celestial kingdom) and get that guaranteed access?


Given that low mortality rates are a product of the past 100 years, and only in first world countries, I'd say that the incredibly vast majority of spirits fall into this category. Over the span of time that humans have been on earth, a very small percentage has made it past infancy, let alone 8 years old.

Sooo...again, we all sat in the pre-existence and said, "YEAH!!! BEST FREAKING PLAN EVER!!!! Almost ALL of the spirit are going to be consigned to the lowest level of the CK with no chance for Godhood! BRILLIANT!!!"
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

charity wrote:This is my understanding. After the judgement, which is considerably after we leave this life, there is no moving from one kingdom up to another, or down either, for that matter.

I always thought that you could go down and visit someone in a lower kingdom?


1. Age of accountability and age 8 aren't necessarily exactly on. The age of accountability is reached when the person has the capacity to undestand right from wrong. That has been stated to be age 8. But that doesn't mean that the day before his/her 8th birthday the child isn't accountable, and the day of suddenly becomes accountable. God knows when the person attains accountability.

CFR on this one.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_Who Knows
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Post by _Who Knows »

Scottcho wrote:Here it is. DnC 131:1-4 which states that the celestial kingdom has 3 levels and the verse 4 indicates that one cannot increase through the other levels.


The key is verse 2. It says in order to go to the highest, you have to enter into eternal marriage.

So if a baby dies, then enters into marriage in the next life (marriages for the dead), then he can go to the top.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_Scottcho
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Post by _Scottcho »

Hm.. that's true. If the dead baby does get a celestial marriage, I guess he could go to the highest level. In that case, the baby killing thing still seems like a viable idea as long as there's someone selfless enough to make that sacrifice.
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