Why does a spiritual epiphany have to mean...

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_charity
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Re: Why does a spiritual epiphany have to mean...

Post by _charity »

amantha wrote:...what somebody else told you it should mean?

Multitudes of people have peak experiences which can been described as spiritual witnesses, epiphanies, visitations, revelations, etc. These experiences are anticipated aspects of human experience. Abraham Maslow described them as part of the human potential for self-actualization. William James viewed them as a common feature of a variety of religious experiences. These experiences are often mysterious and can defy mortal interpretation. Given the mystery and potency of these experiences, would it be possible to control human beings merely by offering to interpret them? Yes, of course.

If I were to start a religion today, I would begin by capturing the persuasive powers of these normal experiences by applying a limited and particular meaning to them. I might ask my followers to read a book, received by inspiration, which is replete with mysterious and worthy anecdotes, as well as moral principles. The text itself instructs the reader to discern its veracity by settling herself into a quieted state which is at the core of my own prescriptive process.

Of course many, but not all readers will experience something profound. Those who have these profound experiences do so within the context of an embedded suggestion, the suggestion that their peak experience is directly related to the verity of the text. If I can then create or usurp a causative agent, e.g. a holy ghost, who is responsible for infusing the seeker with this peak experience, I gain control over the interpretation of it. I thereby become the author of the term “holy ghost,” which my burgeoning congregation will thereafter profess and I also acquire authority over those who believe that my term is the "correct" term. For those who now believe in the verity of my new religious system, their normal and human spiritual epiphanies will forever be a branded commodity, wholly owned by me and my organization. These people will thereafter believe that their experiences arise from the context which I provided for them. I will have successfully coopted a natural process and converted it into intellectual property.

Unfortunately, this scenario has happened and will continue to happen until people refuse to allow others to define and delimit their personal ecstacies. So much can be gained from a peak experience if one is not hamstringed in their choices of what the experience means, or worse where the experience originates. Your freedom to interpret your own experience outside of a matrix of memes, designed to capture your allegiance, is something every person should avail themselves of. By keeping your own counsel with regard to your experiences, you become free to interpret them and to reinterpret them as guided by your own muse.

Moroni can only corner the market on your experiences if you let him. Don't let him or anyone place limits on the myriad meanings available to a purely personal interpretation of the mystery.

By the way, Maslow has the following to say about peak experiences and religious experiences:

The very beginning, the intrinsic core, the essence, the universal nucleus of every known high religion (unless Confucianism is also called a religion) has been the private, lonely, personal illumination, revelation, or ecstasy of some acutely sensitive prophet or seer. The high religions call themselves revealed religions and each of them tends to rest its validity, its function, and its right to exist on the codification and the communication of this original mystic experience or revelation from the lonely prophet to the mass of human beings in general.
But it has recently begun to appear that these "revelations" or mystical illuminations can be subsumed under the head of the "peak-experiences"[1] or "ecstasies" or "transcendent" experiences which are now being eagerly investigated by many psychologists. That is to say, it is very likely, indeed almost certain, that these older reports, phrased in terms of supernatural revelation, were, in fact, perfectly natural, human peak-experiences of the kind that can easily be examined today, which, however, were phrased in terms of whatever conceptual, cultural, and linguistic framework the particular seer had available in his time (Laski).
In a word, we can study today what happened in the past and was then explainable in supernatural terms only. By so doing, we are enabled to examine religion in all its facets and in all its meanings in a way that makes it a part of science rather than something outside and exclusive of it.
Also this kind of study leads us to another very plausible hypothesis: to the extent that all mystical or peak-experiences are the same in their essence and have always been the same, all religions are the same in their essence and always have been the same. They should, therefore, come to agree in principle on teaching that which is common to all of them, I.e., whatever it is that peak-experiences teach in common (whatever is different about these illuminations can fairly be taken to be localisms both in time and space, and are, therefore, peripheral, expendable, not essential). This something common, this something which is left over after we peel away all the localisms, all the accidents of particular languages or particular philosophies, all the ethnocentric phrasings, all those elements which are not common, we may call the "core-religious experience" or the "transcendent experience." [from ISBN:0140194878, Religions, Values, and Peak Experiences by Abraham H. Maslow ©1964 by Kappa Delta Pi and ©1970 (preface) The Viking Press. Published by Penguin Books Limited ISBN 0 14 00.4262 8]


This is what happens when you haven't studied the theory and only get a quote you want to use. Maslow specifically eliminated visions and visitations from his theory. I would suggest you read this small explanation at the following link
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/maslowa.htm

You can see his description is not the same as the external religious experience.
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Hello Nicky. Would you please tell amantha to remove that bloody long web Address!!!!
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

On page two...
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_amantha
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Post by _amantha »

This is what happens when you haven't studied the theory and only get a quote you want to use. Maslow specifically eliminated visions and visitations from his theory. I would suggest you read this small explanation at the following link
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/maslowa.htm

You can see his description is not the same as the external religious experience.


Nice try. Could you please cite for me from that page where Maslow "specifically eliminated visions and visitations"? You can't. I didn't think so. I see also that you left out the "revelation" part that you included previously.

You are a deceiver in the highest degree. You are just trying to make it seem like you have provided a quote. Next time use a quote--don't give a whole page that you haven't even read.

By the way, it's the same book Charity. Get real. Go wipe the egg off your face.
_amantha
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Post by _amantha »

Just to put the nail in Charity's coffin on the Maslow issue and to further elaborate on how people are predisposed to apply labels such as "holy ghost" -- labels which are provided by the "author" of the particular religion, please refer to the bolded phrases in the following quote:

It has been demonstrated again and again that the transcendent experiences have occurred to some people in any culture and at any time and of any religion and in any caste or class. All these experiences are described in about the same general way; the language and the concrete contents may be different, indeed must be different. These experiences are essentially ineffable ( in the sense that even the best verbal phrasings are not quite good enough), which is also to say that they are unstructured (like Rorschach ink-blots). Also throughout history, they have never been understood in a naturalistic way. Small wonder it is then that the mystic, trying to describe his experience, can do it only in a local, culture-bound, ignorance-bound, language-bound way, confusing his description of the experience with whatever explanation of it and phrasing of it is most readily available to him in his time and in his place. [e.g. the holy ghost]
Laski (42) discusses the problem in detail in her chapters on "Overbeliefs" and in other places and agrees with James in disregarding them. For instance, she points out (p. 14), "To a substantial extent the people in the religious group knew the vocabulary for such experiences before they knew the experience; inevitably when the experiences are known, they tend to be recounted in the vocabulary already accepted as appropriate."[i.e. Moroni told me the spirit would confirm and by golly it did. Amazing that.]
Koestler (39) also said it well, "But because the experience is inarticulate, has no sensory shape, color or words, it lends itself to transcription in many forms, including visions of the cross, or of the goddess Kali; [there are your visions and visitations Charity and no you can't exclude Elohim and Jehova from the mix.]they are like dreams of a person born blind.... Thus a genuine mystic experience may mediate a bona fide conversion to practically any creed[Mormonsim], Christianity, Buddhism or Fire-Worship" (p. 353). In the same volume, Koestler reports in vivid detail a mystic experience of his own.
Still another way of understanding this phenomenon is to liken the peak experiences to raw materials which can be used for different styles of structures, as the same bricks and mortar and lumber would be built into different kinds of houses by a Frenchman, a Japanese, or a Tahitian (45).
I have, therefore, paid no attention to these localisms since they cancel one another out.[The visions and visitations are simply part and parcel of the religious experience qua peak experience] I take the generalized peak-experience to be that which is common to all places and times.[Religions, Values, and Peak Experiences ©1964 by Kappa Delta Pi and ©1970 (preface) The Viking Press. Published by Penguin Books LimitedISBN 0 14 00.4262 8]
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

The very beginning, the intrinsic core, the essence, the universal nucleus of every known high religion (unless Confucianism is also called a religion) has been the private, lonely, personal illumination, revelation, or ecstasy of some acutely sensitive prophet or seer. The high religions call themselves revealed religions and each of them tends to rest its validity, its function, and its right to exist on the codification and the communication of this original mystic experience or revelation from the lonely prophet to the mass of human beings in general.
But it has recently begun to appear that these "revelations" or mystical illuminations can be subsumed under the head of the "peak-experiences"[1] or "ecstasies" or "transcendent" experiences which are now being eagerly investigated by many psychologists. That is to say, it is very likely, indeed almost certain, that these older reports, phrased in terms of supernatural revelation, were, in fact, perfectly natural, human peak-experiences of the kind that can easily be examined today, which, however, were phrased in terms of whatever conceptual, cultural, and linguistic framework the particular seer had available in his time (Laski).
In a word, we can study today what happened in the past and was then explainable in supernatural terms only. By so doing, we are enabled to examine religion in all its facets and in all its meanings in a way that makes it a part of science rather than something outside and exclusive of it.
Also this kind of study leads us to another very plausible hypothesis: to the extent that all mystical or peak-experiences are the same in their essence and have always been the same, all religions are the same in their essence and always have been the same. They should, therefore, come to agree in principle on teaching that which is common to all of them, i.e., whatever it is that peak-experiences teach in common (whatever is different about these illuminations can fairly be taken to be localisms both in time and space, and are, therefore, peripheral, expendable, not essential). This something common, this something which is left over after we peel away all the localisms, all the accidents of particular languages or particular philosophies, all the ethnocentric phrasings, all those elements which are not common, we may call the "core-religious experience" or the "transcendent experience."
To understand this better, we must differentiate the prophets in general from the organizers or legalists in general as (abstracted) types. (I admit that the use of pure, extreme types which do not really exist can come close to the edge of caricature; nevertheless, I think it will help all of us in thinking through the problem we are here concerned with.)[2] The characteristic prophet is a lonely man who has discovered his truth about the world, the cosmos, ethics, God, and his own identity from within, from his own personal experiences, from what he would consider to be a revelation. Usually, perhaps always, the prophets of the high religions have had these experiences when they were alone.


Another quote from chapter III.

~dancer~

Edit.... opps, missed the fact that you already posted this. ;-)
Last edited by Bing [Bot] on Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_charity
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Post by _charity »

amantha wrote:
This is what happens when you haven't studied the theory and only get a quote you want to use. Maslow specifically eliminated visions and visitations from his theory. I would suggest you read this small explanation at the following link
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/maslowa.htm

You can see his description is not the same as the external religious experience.


Nice try. Could you please cite for me from that page where Maslow "specifically eliminated visions and visitations"? You can't. I didn't think so. I see also that you left out the "revelation" part that you included previously.

You are a deceiver in the highest degree. You are just trying to make it seem like you have provided a quote. Next time use a quote--don't give a whole page that you haven't even read.


Maslow does not address visions and visitation, since his whole theory is based on internal events, or cognitions. If you have a problem with reading a citation, that is your problem. Follow Maslow's descriptions of the internal events as far as you want, and you aren't going to find him talking about visions when you get to the end. And that is the story of LDS theology. Sorry.
_amantha
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Post by _amantha »

charity wrote:
amantha wrote:
This is what happens when you haven't studied the theory and only get a quote you want to use. Maslow specifically eliminated visions and visitations from his theory. I would suggest you read this small explanation at the following link
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/maslowa.htm

You can see his description is not the same as the external religious experience.


Nice try. Could you please cite for me from that page where Maslow "specifically eliminated visions and visitations"? You can't. I didn't think so. I see also that you left out the "revelation" part that you included previously.

You are a deceiver in the highest degree. You are just trying to make it seem like you have provided a quote. Next time use a quote--don't give a whole page that you haven't even read.


Maslow does not address visions and visitation, since his whole theory is based on internal events, or cognitions. If you have a problem with reading a citation, that is your problem. Follow Maslow's descriptions of the internal events as far as you want, and you aren't going to find him talking about visions when you get to the end. And that is the story of LDS theology. Sorry.


Read the quote on visions and having a nice visit with Kali in the quote posted above and in my new thread on Maslow. Sorry. Keep scrubbing. You are the only one who thinks that visions and visitations are EXTERNAL. Prove it. Can't? Thought so. You only have your own fallible interpretation of a religious experience which, by the way, is soundly trounced by Maslow himself.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Charity...

Mazlow says... "mystical illuminations," "revelations," "supernatural revelations," "what happened in the past and was then explainable in supernatural terms only," "all mystical" experience, and what prophets consider, "revelations."

Do you have some sort of documentation that Mazlow excluded visitation in his statement, "all mystical" experiences?

Also, as hopefully you noted... Mazlow does indeed specifically include revelations which you stated he did not.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_amantha
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Post by _amantha »

truth dancer wrote:Charity...

Mazlow says... "mystical illuminations," "revelations," "supernatural revelations," "what happened in the past and was then explainable in supernatural terms only," "all mystical" experience, and what prophets consider, "revelations."

Do you have some sort of documentation that Mazlow excluded visitation in his statement, "all mystical" experiences?

Also, as hopefully you noted... Mazlow does indeed specifically include revelations which you stated he did not.

~dancer~


He also specifically included visions and a visitation from Kali. See my second quote. If you discount Kali, you must discount Elohim and Jehovah, unless of course you are prone to believing that you have an infallible interpretation of a personal religious experience.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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