Another reason to ask about the Closed Books...

[_GoodK]

I have also given plenty of reasons why your statement that MOST people on the planet have religious experiences the same as LDS. 20% report they are not religious at all. Half of those left don't even go to church all that often. Your MOST is a small number.

Actually, I made that statement.
And you haven't given any reasons.

Then you aren't reading. If you want to talk in non-religious terms, Maslow wrote about what he called "peak exper8iences." These were useful in his theory to determine whether or not all the needs were being met. If they were the person could then experience "peak experiences."

In Maslow's view, a small percentage of people experienced these. And even so, having experienced them myself as described by Maslow, I can tell you they are not comparable to "spiritual experiences."

Just because a (nameless) poll says that 20% of people aren't religious, does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that they cannot and do not have spiritual experiences (which you are calling religious experiences).

That is what we are talking about, as differentiated from patriotic feelings, good music, etc.

Religion -specifically the one started by Joseph Smith Jr.- is not unique in relying on or attempting to facilitate spiritual experiences. And are you saying people can only experience spiritual experiences in a church building? Or if they go to church that often. ?

Religion, specifically the one restored by God through Joseph Smith, Jr. is not unique in encouraging people to seek for spiritual experiences. What a silly thing it would be any LDS to say that such experiences occur only in church buildings. Let's see: the Sacred Grove, the banks of the Susquahannah River, Fishing River, etc. People who demonstrate religious committment by attending church, which ever one, would more likely be in a place to experience the Holy Ghost. Much better in a church than at a race track or in a strip joint.

I thought the reference to Islam, which is allegedly the fastest growing religion on the planet, was quite appropriate. These people aren't having a spiritual confirmation of the truth of their prophet?

I have never heard a Muslim describe a witness from the Holy Ghost. People can join groups, even religious groups, and not have a spiritual witness that they must do so. I had a roomate in college who was a dedicated Delta Gamma. You would not believe what she went through to get into DG's. But she never said God told her it was the right sorority.

I'm sorry to see that you are intentionally missing the point this flagrantly and not responding to anything I've said with any substance.

I think there is much you can learn from choosing your battles. You are clearly on the loosing side of this debate.

[_Gazelam]

All people have the light of Christ in them, as Charity has stated, and this light is the source of all truth and intelligence. The Holy Ghost assists in helping one to recognize and seek after this light in more abundance.

the Holy Ghost can and does manifest himself through emotion, the most common of these being Joy and Peace. Hence the association with the emotions felt during a stirring musical performance. The Holy Ghost can be recognized as beign seperate from this by the fact that he will edify and educate the recipient with knowledge and further truths.

[_Jersey Girl]

All people have the light of Christ in them, as Charity has stated, and this light is the source of all truth and intelligence. The Holy Ghost assists in helping one to recognize and seek after this light in more abundance.

the Holy Ghost can and does manifest himself through emotion, the most common of these being Joy and Peace. Hence the association with the emotions felt during a stirring musical performance. The Holy Ghost can be recognized as beign seperate from this by the fact that he will edify and educate the recipient with knowledge and further truths.

I'd like to know if you believe that people like Charles Manson, Jeffery Dahlmer (sp?), Hitler and Saddam Hussein also have the light of Christ in them? I'm just curious as to how you view them in that regard.

Jersey

[_beastie]

Besides the issues of how much the Church leaders make or don't make and where the money is, an examination of the books could lead many people to believe they don't need to pay tithing because the Church has enough resources to support itself. If the books were opened and it was found that the church has 50 billion in assets or whatever, many people could justify that they don't need to pay tithing when the church has that type of wealth. Furthermore, it would be quite difficult for the Church leadership to tell people they need to pay their tithing because the church needs to meet it's overhead or needs to build more temples or whatever.

Just a thought...

Good point. This is THE reason the church won't open its books. I do not believe that the leaders are embezzling church funds or paying themselves outrageous salaries. But I DO believe the church is extraordinarily wealthy, and it does not want its members to know just how wealthy it is. Sure, there are some folks who would continue out of obedience, no matter what, but if you are really struggling to put food on the table, and you know the church doesn't need your pittance anyway but your own kids sure could use it - you might think twice about it. And what percentage of LDS members actually pay a full tithe NOW?

I'm not saying that members aren't aware the church has a lot of money, but perhaps the SCALE of the amount would be off-putting.

OTOH, if someone is naïve enough to want to give ten percent of his/her income to an institution that refuses to allow any transparency in their books, then they deserve to have their money potentially misused.

[_charity]

I'd like to know if you believe that people like Charles Manson, Jeffery Dahlmer (sp?), Hitler and Saddam Hussein also have the light of Christ in them? I'm just curious as to how you view them in that regard.

Jersey

We all start out with it. But not listening, denying it, committing sin will "cloud" the light, or maybe even extinguish it altogether.

[_charity]

Good point. This is THE reason the church won't open its books. I do not believe that the leaders are embezzling church funds or paying themselves outrageous salaries. But I DO believe the church is extraordinarily wealthy, and it does not want its members to know just how wealthy it is. Sure, there are some folks who would continue out of obedience, no matter what, but if you are really struggling to put food on the table, and you know the church doesn't need your pittance anyway but your own kids sure could use it - you might think twice about it. And what percentage of LDS members actually pay a full tithe NOW?

Faithful members know that paying tithing does not depend on how much money the Church has or doesn't have. It is a matter of keeping a commandment of God. This is the same reason faithful members continue to live the Word of Wisdom when the modern medical establishment says drinking wine is good for your heart.

OTOH, if someone is naïve enough to want to give ten percent of his/her income to an institution that refuses to allow any transparency in their books, then they deserve to have their money potentially misused.

I can live with that. It is my responsibility to God to pay tithing. It is the responsibility of those given stewardship over those funds to do what God wants done with them.

[_Jersey Girl]

I'd like to know if you believe that people like Charles Manson, Jeffery Dahlmer (sp?), Hitler and Saddam Hussein also have the light of Christ in them? I'm just curious as to how you view them in that regard.

Jersey

We all start out with it. But not listening, denying it, committing sin will "cloud" the light, or maybe even extinguish it altogether.

In the above, you appear to assign responsibility to the individual for not listening, denying or committing sin that clouds the light or extinguishes it. I chose the men that I listed intentionally. They are each of them, sufferers of mental illness and/or chronic early childhood abuse. Having said that, I am left to ask you if you think it was within their power to listen, accept or refrain from committing sin?

[_charity]

In the above, you appear to assign responsibility to the individual for not listening, denying or committing sin that clouds the light or extinguishes it. I chose the men that I listed intentionally. They are each of them, sufferers of mental illness and/or chronic early childhood abuse. Having said that, I am left to ask you if you think it was within their power to listen, accept or refrain from committing sin?

Yes, it was. Each man tried to cover up his crimes. That denotes conscienceness of guilt.

[_richardMdBorn]

In the above, you appear to assign responsibility to the individual for not listening, denying or committing sin that clouds the light or extinguishes it. I chose the men that I listed intentionally. They are each of them, sufferers of mental illness and/or chronic early childhood abuse. Having said that, I am left to ask you if you think it was within their power to listen, accept or refrain from committing sin?

Yes, it was. Each man tried to cover up his crimes. That denotes conscienceness of guilt.

Good thing that Joseph Smith didn't try to cover up polygamy from the public and especially Emma. According to your standard, that would denote consciousness of guilt.

[_beastie]

OTOH, if someone is naïve enough to want to give ten percent of his/her income to an institution that refuses to allow any transparency in their books, then they deserve to have their money potentially misused.



I can live with that. It is my responsibility to God to pay tithing. It is the responsibility of those given stewardship over those funds to do what God wants done with them.

Yes, I know that people who believe their main job is obedience would be fine with that. I'm also assuming you agree with Heber C. Kimball's statement:

In regard to our situation and circumstances in these valleys, brethren, WAKE UP! WAKE UP, YE ELDERS OF ISRAEL, AND LIVE TO GOD and none else; and learn to do as you are told, both old and young: learn to do as you are told for the future. And when you are taking a position, if you do not know that you are right, do not take it-I mean independently. But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong. You will get water, if you dig away. That is rather presumptuous doctrine with some people; but with me it is not.

I have heard men teach in this stand that I was under no obligation to do anything, except I had a revelation. I do not believe the doctrine at all. I don't care who preached it. I am not the leader-I am not the Prophet, nor the chief Apostle. I do not hold the keys independently. I have no keys, only what I hold in brother Brigham; and then brother Brigham has the word of God: he must do thus and so. He comes to me and says, "Brother Heber, I want you to do thus and so." Wait till I go home, get into my private room, and ask God that I may get a revelation! ain't that pretty, brother Taylor? Well, I will not talk just as I think. If I did, I would knock this pulpit head over heels, when I think of such folly. Go and get a revelation, when God has spoken through my head!-and then the tail goes off, and gets down on his knees to get a revelation, when the head has got one!

Now, I have heard that doctrine preached here, that they must have a revelation before they are bound to receive that word and go and practise it, just as it would have been with those men I employed to go and dig that well by the arsenal. "Wait, sir." I will not wait a minute. Go along, or I will employ men that will do it. "I am going to get a revelation to know if there is water there." They do not know that by believing on any man's testimony they increase in knowledge, wisdom, and the power of God. They forget that. Do you not see that I can learn more to be led than I can to lead, if I have the right man to lead me? Brother Brigham is my leader: he is my Prophet, my Seer, and my Revelator; and whatever he says, that is for me to do; and it is not for me to question him one word, nor to question God a minute. Do you not see?

http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_06/refJDvol6-4.html

As happy as you - and people who share your worldview of the importance of obedience - are to simply obey and let the chips fall where they may, the fact is that there are other members of the church who do NOT share that particular worldview. It has always been this way, the fact that Heber had to preach like this demonstrates that even in the early days of the church there were some wild-eyed believers who actually thought they had a right to verify revelation BEFORE obeying, and who might just take it upon themselves to think it out, pray to God, and will believe that they don't have to pay tithing when it creates such financial stress on their family and plainly the church doesn't need it.

The fact is that there are already members who make this determination, and that's why full tithe payers are a minority in the overall church membership. So if you think that the church opening their books and demonstrating just how wealthy the church really IS won't increase that number, I think you're very wrong. Now you may privately judge them and conclude they are defying God, they didn't really receive the "Right" revelation, etc etc etc - but your judgment won't change the fact that the numbers who will make the choice to NOT pay tithing would probably increase if the books were open.