Mormon Heroes

[_Tidejwe]

Brown was a faithful Apostle and knew perfectly well that he had no authority to alter the Church's policy without revelation from the Lord and the unanimity of the Brethren.

Whoa there Coggins...make sure you know what actually happened before coming off as ignorant on the matter. As First councilor, Brown was in charge at the time because President David O McKay was completely incapacitated/infirm (not acting as President of the church) because of his health. He couldn't do anything in regards to church responsibilities and left everything up to Brown to be in charge for all church duties required of the "Prophet". Thus, yes he DID have authority with whatever was necessary as dictated by McKay. Consequently, he still held a vote on the matter, and the entire first presidency and quorum of 12 sustained it, with one exception...Lee. When Lee found out what they'd all agreed to (he wasn't present for it), he went off about how necessary the ban was, and refused to agree to it (not unlike what happened when Woodruff tried to ban polygamy). Lee forced Brown to publish a statement publicly telling everyone that all the excitement about removing the ban wasn't actually going to happen, etc. Brown even complained about Lee's dealings with the matter in a California Newspaper interview. Besides, who are you to claim that Brown DIDN'T receive a revelation about it? How is it that EVERY apostle but Lee felt the spirit that it was time to remove the ban in 1969? I'd say it was the same way that a few apostles didn't believe the manifesto, or the same way that Doubting Thomas didn't believe Christ rose from the dead, even though every other apostle knew it. I don't see why it is so much easier for you to believe that 14 apostles were all wrong and misled by what they THOUGHT was the spirit, but only 1 apostle was actually right and feeling the right spirit. Wouldn't it make more sense for you to believe that 14 apostles are more likely to be right instead of a single dissenter? To each his own I suppose...but to specifically address your post...it WAS Brown's job to address the issue at the time. He was the one in charge while McKay couldn't do ANYTHING. If I recall correctly It wasn't just physical health problems with McKay...he wasn't all there mentally at the time either.

Again, you're welcome to feel as you wish...I certainly commend Brown for his efforts to remove the ban and convince 13 other apostles that he was right. I wouldn't be surprised if it is because of Brown that Kimball was ready to remove the ban. After all, Kimball was one of the apostles Brown had previously persuaded and who already voted to remove it in 1969. It's interesting that shortly after the death of the only dissenter (Lee) that the ban was lifted, by most of the same people who had previously thought it should be lifted. I think Brown had a HUGE influence in that since he's the one who convinced all the others it was time in the first place. It's unfortunate there was one apostle he wasn't able to persuade. For me, Brown still remains a hero.

[_Inconceivable]

William Law - While at Nauvoo, Joseph Smith chose him to be a member of the First Presidency. But being a man of principle, William could not go along with Smith's secret practice of polygamy. Because of this he was excommunicated, and lost his job and standing in the community. I think this took guts.

I'll second that. Seems that he was a man of principle and integrity when it came to not only remaining true to his sacred marriage covenants but calling a spade a spade.

[_CaliforniaKid]

William Law - While at Nauvoo, Joseph Smith chose him to be a member of the First Presidency. But being a man of principle, William could not go along with Smith's secret practice of polygamy. Because of this he was excommunicated, and lost his job and standing in the community. I think this took guts.

Agreed. I'm also a big fan of David Whitmer.

[_Tidejwe]

Bishop Edward Bunker: The first person to actually stand up and declare the Adam God Doctrine was a bunch of BS. He went through several tribunals and was almost excommunicated because he refused to be silenced or state that he was wrong and the Adam God Doctrine was true. If it weren't for this man, we'd probably still be listening to that stupid "Lecture at the Veil" as Brigham wrote it saying that Adam lived on another Earth, got the priesthood, married many wives, died, was resurrected, became exalted, had spirit children, then came back to Earth as a mortal and then had mortal children to bring his spirit children down to Earth. Edward Bunker had a lot to lose fighting against the AGD, but his story is downright amazing.

Joseph Fielding Smith said the idea was B.S. several generations ago, as did McConkie et al. Another egocentric looking for attention and controversy, apparently. Color me unimpressed. The lecture at the Veil never had a particle of legitimacy as Church doctrine, and Young never taught these ideas publically.

What the heck are you talking about?!?! Brigham Young had the Lecture at the Veil preached in the temple for over 40 YEARS at the end of the Endowment. The Adam God Doctrine wasn't preached publicly? If you say so...it's funny that nearly every single leader at the time had things in their diaries about it, there were public discourses about it. He promised to excommunicate people who didn't believe in it (including one of the apostles, Pratt) unless the repented and professed belief in it. In Pratt's case, publicly renouncing his previous remarks and professing belief in it. If it warrants excommunication, I'd venture to say that it was considered pretty dang official. Brigham Young even DECLARED it was a REVELATION from God and not his opinion. So you're calling him a liar? A prophet declaring something as REVELATION from God sounds pretty dang official to me.

OK, fine, so the temple isn't public, public discourses aren't public, general conference probably isn't public either...but I'd say the temple and excommunication makes it pretty dang official. Every single person who went through an endowment for over 40 years heard it preached in the temple. 40 YEARS. Bishop Bunker lived WAY BEFORE McConkie and JFS. JFS and McConkie only denounced the Adam God Theory BECAUSE of Bunker. Bunker was the FIRST....a pioneer in denouncing it. It was Bunker who got the Adam God stuff taken out of the endowment. If it weren't for Bunker JFS and McConkie would've believed in the Adam God Doctrine. The only reason you believe it was never official is because others have said so because Bunker stood up to it first. They called several councils over the matter to discuss whether Bunker was right about it being unofficial and wrong. BUNKER is to thank for that, not JFS or McConkie.

Wow...your argument really blows me away. Not official? Not public? What a joke...in all seriousness, PLEASE research the Adam-God Doctrine a little more outside of threads to find where Brigham proclaimed it as revelation, and where he DID talk about publicly, etc. There's a TON on the matter you apparently aren't familiar with. Where he had others profess belief in it, and threatened to excommunicate them over it. What is your definition of official? Because if Hinckley came out and said something was given to him as a revelation, talked about it in some public discourses, added it into the temple endowment for the next 40+years, made apostles state they agreed to it or would excommunicate them, etc....I'm pretty sure you'd believe it was official. And if it's not...then I think you're playing a ridiculous game. Perhaps we're arguing semantics, but I'd have to say that sounds pretty "Official" to me. So please clarify your meaning.

I don't believe the whole Adam God theory stuff either, but there are parts of it which are absolutely amazing and insightful. In many ways I'd agree with parts of it. But the commonly known things, and those discussed in this thread aren't among them.

Again, I maintain that Bunker was absolutely AMAZING in standing up for this like he did. I am positive that we'd still believe and preach all that junk if it weren't for him. The stake and high council were so persuaded by Bunker's arguments that it escalated all the way to the Prophet and apostles who had to hold MULTIPLE councils with the stake and Bunker just to discuss whether they should excommunicate someone over the matter. That took a lot of guts to stand up for what was right and true and not to give in every time it looked like he was doomed. Bunker came out on top and convinced the prophet and apostles in these meetings to finally decide that it wasn't official. Bunker debunked the thing...not JFS and McConkie...Bunker convinced Joseph Fielding Smith's dad (Joseph F Smith) the Adam God was wrong, and Joseph F convinced his son Joseph Fielding and Joseph Fielding convinced McConkie. So JFS and BRM have Bunker to thank for it all...as do you.

Dislike me or my opinions if you want...I don't really care...but I can't believe you are disputing historical fact that BUNKER is the one responsible for debunking the Adam God stuff. It's an utterly ridiculous argument.

[_Inconceivable]

Perhaps the un-named person that was instrumental in pulling the 3 x "suffer my life to be taken"'s out of the pre-1990 endowments.

hmm...

If I reveal the signs and tokens related to the covenant, I have agreed to the consequence of being slaughtered (disembowelled, throat cut, chest opened). Those taking out endowments after 1990 are exempt - or are they? ..just because they don't know the specific "serious consequences" doesn't mean these actions are not in force?

Maybe this has never been rescinded?

It begs the question:

Are there any heros of Mormonism that remain Mormons???

[_Jason Bourne]

Tidejwe

Check this out:

http://mormonstories.org/othermormonher ... 20TOC.html

[_Jason Bourne]

I am curious who you would consider to be a "hero" in general terms from within the ranks of Mormonism and why?

For me, I'd have to Say the following are SOME of my Heroes (no particular order):

Hugh B Brown: Did the most in my opinion, fighting against all odds and Harold B Lee, etc to be a pioneer in removing the Priesthood Ban on blacks and denouncing it as a policy and declaring it was unfounded, not a revelation and not a doctrine. He convinced every apostle but Harold B Lee it was time to remove the ban since back in the 60's! If it weren't for HBL, it would've happened more than a decade earlier due to HBB leading the way.

What is your sources for the claim that Brown "fought against" Harold B. Lee? Brown was a faithful Apostle and knew perfectly well that he had no authority to alter the Church's policy without revelation from the Lord and the unanimity of the Brethren.
hurch.

Read David O Mckay and the Rise of Modern Mormomism. You can read all about the wrangling and internal struggles about this issue. It is clear that Hugh Brown was a strong advocate of ending the ban and that HBL and other apostles were not. Lee was a forceful man on this issue and even went around the FP and one point when Pres Mckay was ill to push forward a statement to be read in general conference sustaining the ban.

Really Coggins you need to be bettter informed about these issues

[_Jason Bourne]

Bishop Edward Bunker: The first person to actually stand up and declare the Adam God Doctrine was a bunch of BS. He went through several tribunals and was almost excommunicated because he refused to be silenced or state that he was wrong and the Adam God Doctrine was true. If it weren't for this man, we'd probably still be listening to that stupid "Lecture at the Veil" as Brigham wrote it saying that Adam lived on another Earth, got the priesthood, married many wives, died, was resurrected, became exalted, had spirit children, then came back to Earth as a mortal and then had mortal children to bring his spirit children down to Earth. Edward Bunker had a lot to lose fighting against the AGD, but his story is downright amazing.

Joseph Fielding Smith said the idea was B.S. several generations ago, as did McConkie et al. Another egocentric looking for attention and controversy, apparently. Color me unimpressed. The lecture at the Veil never had a particle of legitimacy as Church doctrine, and Young never taught these ideas publically.

Coggins, you really need to study church history better. Are you really LDS? Seems you really do not know the history of the Church you crow about being so knowledgeable about. As noted elsewhere, not apoligist worth their salt denies AG was taught extensively and publicly. McConkie admited BY taught it and said BY was in error on this subject. You look ever more foolish for pretending that this was not a major thing in the 19th century.

[_beastie]

I think George Romney was a hero for standing up to the pressure applied to him by the brethren to oppose civil rights. I don't think many faithful LDS would have to guts to openly defy the leadership's opinion after receiving a private letter encouraging him to get in line.

[_Scottie]

God. God is the greatest and the upmost respectable hero.

If I ever get the chance to meet God, I will spit in his face for being the most cruel and horrific creature I know. He deserves absolutely NO respect from anyone. Fear, maybe, but not respect.