Another reason to ask about the Closed Books...

[_charity]

The LDS Church is not the richest institution in your life. The US government is and I bet you give them more then 10%/

Actually, Jason, for the years when the church was the richest institution in my life, I paid no taxes. And that was for years and years. It's only in the last 10 years that I've had to pay taxes (and what a bite it is!). For the 20 years before that, we never made enough money for them to keep what little was withheld. We always got it all back.

So, yes... the LDS church was indeed the richest institution in my life at that time.

Harmony, it has been my impression from your posts that your basic conflict with the Church are over the history and leadership, but not the doctrine.

Tithing is a commandment. There are no "except for" provisions in the laws of God. * You don't get to be chaste "except for" when you are in love, or "except for" when you are having difficulties with your spouse. You can't steal from your neighbor, "except for when you want his TV." There is no provision in the law of tithing "except for" when you think you don't have enough money for your needs.

*God has more laws than we know. That's why miracles work. They aren't outside the law. They are just operations of laws we don't understand yet.

[_charity]

The LDS Church is not the richest institution in your life. The US government is and I bet you give them more then 10%/

Actually, Jason, for the years when the church was the richest institution in my life, I paid no taxes. And that was for years and years. It's only in the last 10 years that I've had to pay taxes (and what a bite it is!). For the 20 years before that, we never made enough money for them to keep what little was withheld. We always got it all back.

So, yes... the LDS church was indeed the richest institution in my life at that time.

Harmony, it has been my impression from your posts that your basic conflict with the Church are over the history and leadership, but not the doctrine.

Tithing is a commandment. There are no "except for" provisions in the laws of God. * You don't get to be chaste "except for" when you are in love, or "except for" when you are having difficulties with your spouse. You can't steal from your neighbor, "except for when you want his TV." There is no provision in the law of tithing "except for" when you think you don't have enough money for your needs.

*God has more laws than we know. That's why miracles work. They aren't outside the law. They are just operations of laws we don't understand yet.

[_harmony]

So have I.

No, you haven't.

We supported a family of six children on a teacher's income. We always qualified for "reduced price" meals at the schools, but we couldn't even afford that. I made our kids lunches to take from home to save even a few pennies there. We shopped at thrift stores and never had a car less than 10 years old. And for the years I was a stay at home mom, we had one car. We never lived in nice suburban homes with multiple bathrooms. All 8 of us made do with one bathroom and the scheduling problems that caused trying to get everyone ready to go at the same time. We never took the kids to Disneyland or any other fancy vacation. Once a month we went out for a big night to have a hamburger, milkshake and french fries at the McD. The kids had whatever sports and music activities were given through the schools. No tennis lessons or gym club memberships. We were below poverty level every year we had all six kids at home. So don't try to patronize me, either.

We supported a family of eight kids on a farm laborer's income. We didn't have health insurance until my oldest was 8 and then only because I was working one day a week, substituting for my mom, and she twisted her boss's arm so I could pay half and they pay half. We qualified for free lunch. We lived in a single-wide trailer, until all 8 kids were born, then we upgraded to a 15 year old double wide and thought we were in heaven. We went to visit family when we went on vacation, the kids riding in the back of the pickup under a canopy a friend let us borrow. My kids didn't go to Disneyland until one of them went there on his honeymoon long after our poverty phase was over. We were on food stamps and church welfare for a while. My kids looked nice for church and school because I was a talented seamstress. I could take a thrift store man's shirt, cut it down for a youth and no one would know where it came from. My girls' dresses looked like they'd been bought at a high end clothing store because I knew how to make them look like that. Etc. etc. etc.

Give it up, charity. I can out-poverty almost anyone on this board. You know poor. I know poverty.

We borrowed money some years to pay a full tithe. Paid 20% interest on it. It was stupid of us, but we thought we were being obedient. Now paying a full tithe isn't a sacrifice. Back then, it was more than a sacrifice. Back then, it was torture.

No one ever starves or goes homeless for paying tithing.

I don't supposed food stamps and church welfare qualifies as starving, no. The things we went without are a bit higher on Needs heirarchy: We swept the carpet with a broom because we had no vacuum. We hung our clothes on a clothesline, even in the dead of winter, because we had no dryer (which gives new meaning to "freeze dried"). We scrubbed the floor on our hands and knees because we had no mop. Heck, one year we baked up a bunch of baked goods, took them to the county fair and entered them in the contest, and then we pooled all the premium money we got so we could buy our first color tv. Prior to 1985, we only had a 12" black and white tv. We didn't buy our first VCR until well into the 90's. We survived because of where we live (it's easier to put food on the table in the middle of farmland where the farmers let you glean the fields and orchards than it is in the middle of the big city). It was a challenge to see how I could out-smart poverty so not even our closest friends would know how really poor we were. And I did. And I'm damn proud of the fact that because of some decisions we made in the late 80's, we no longer live like that. But the church certainly never gave us a pass on paying tithing. Oh, no. Tithing came before health insurance, before food and house, before clothes and shoes, before everything. They could afford to do without my tithing, but they layered on the guilt with a trowel to take the little bit I had.

[_charity]

Harmony, we could carry this on all day. I have some more really poor stories, but that would be boring Old Testament everyone else except you and me in this little tiff.

At least you admitted that borrwoing to pay your tithing was not smart. But you didn't do anything really dumb like a m an in our ward. Raised marijuana and sold it to finance his kid's mission. His family didn't know poor until he was in federal prison for 5 years.

[_harmony]

Harmony, we could carry this on all day. I have some more really poor stories, but that would be boring Old Testament everyone else except you and me in this little tiff.

At least you admitted that borrwoing to pay your tithing was not smart. But you didn't do anything really dumb like a m an in our ward. Raised marijuana and sold it to finance his kid's mission. His family didn't know poor until he was in federal prison for 5 years.

Okay, that takes dumb to a whole new level.

[_beastie]

The point is, Charity, that there are people in the US who do live hand to mouth. And as Jason pointed out, there is servere poverty in third world countries as well, and there are LDS in those countries, expected to pay tithing just like US members. Remember the story of the man who took the gold fillings out of his teeth to make a donation to pay for the building of the temple? People make real sacrifices to pay tithing, and it might not go over as well if they were fully aware of how rich the LDS church really is.

I can't out-poor you or harmony, but I also qualified for reduced school lunch most of the years my kids were young, although I wouldn't take it. I was too embarrassed. But there is a whole other level below reduced - free lunch - which harmony qualified for. If your family struggled the way you did, imagine what it's like for those whose incomes are even lower. I teach kids who wouldn't eat three meals a day if it were not for the free lunch program. I teach kids who live in rickety trailers that wouldn't have heat without aid. Your sermon about how people aren't really poor, they just want Ipods and new cars, is offensive and insulting. It reminds me of Pres. Benson's old lecture to the sisters in the church when he acted like the only reason mothers were working outside the home was to pay for luxuries. If I hadn't worked my entire life my kids wouldn't have had basic health care or even a roof over their heads. And when I paid tithing as an active member, I ended up filling the gap by using credit cards to buy groceries and diapers. Yeah, that was stupid. But when the choice for me, as a believer, was pay tithing and run up a credit card debt, or not pay tithing, I chose tithing. And even with that it was tough to make it. Maybe tithing wasn't the difference between my kids starving and eating, but it was a significant contributory difference to financial solvency versus creating a situation that later required bankruptcy.

"There really isn't poverty in the US" is a favorite mantra among the right-wing that would like to dismantle the entire social support system in the US and still be able to sleep at night.

[_harmony]

Harmony, it has been my impression from your posts that your basic conflict with the Church are over the history and leadership, but not the doctrine.

My objections to the church include history, leadership, and how they treat women (which includes both polygamy and the priesthood). Otherwise, I have no complaint.

Tithing is a commandment. There are no "except for" provisions in the laws of God. *

You need to talk to John Taylor. Obviously he didn't agree with you.

I have few objections to tithing. I understand why it's necessary. But I do object to a bloated portfolio built on the backs of hard-working members that serves only to buy real estate in downtown SLC, build monuments to current leaders, and not to help those who need help. I want the books open. I want financial transparency.

[_charity]

As faithful members understand, tithing is not about funding the activities of the Church. I wouldn't complain if they burned it in an oven. I am glad the Lord has allowed the money to be used for the buildings I enjoy, the temples, BYU, etc. But that 10% belongs to the Lord.

It is about showing how grateful we are for our blessings. Someone mentioned on a post that he worked hard for his money and God had nothing to do with it. That illustrates the concept perfectly.

[_harmony]

As faithful members understand, tithing is not about funding the activities of the Church. I wouldn't complain if they burned it in an oven. I am glad the Lord has allowed the money to be used for the buildings I enjoy, the temples, BYU, etc. But that 10% belongs to the Lord.

It is about showing how grateful we are for our blessings. Someone mentioned on a post that he worked hard for his money and God had nothing to do with it. That illustrates the concept perfectly.

You're confusing God with the church again, charity. They are not the same.

God requires no money. God has no need for money. The church, on the other hand, has an insatiable need for more and more money.

[_charity]

"There really isn't poverty in the US" is a favorite mantra among the right-wing that would like to dismantle the entire social support system in the US and still be able to sleep at night.

Of course there is poverty in the United States, a lot of it caused by wrong headed social policies over the last 50 years. Dismantleing it would probably cause a lot of people to starve. Keeping it going is spirialing us down into more and more poverty. What is your suggestion?