White Mary, Mother of Jesus

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_beastie
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White Mary, Mother of Jesus

Post by _beastie »

1 Nephi 11

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
14 And it came to pass that I saw the aheavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.


So why was Mary white?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_the road to hana
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Re: White Mary, Mother of Jesus

Post by _the road to hana »

beastie wrote:1 Nephi 11

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
14 And it came to pass that I saw the aheavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.


So why was Mary white?


Maybe Joseph Smith was racist. Ya think?
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_Ren
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Post by _Ren »

beastie wrote:So why was Mary white?

She was just feeling a bit flushed. She somehow sensed that someone was peeking in on her from the past...
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Dictinary defintion of "fair": free from blemish, imperfection, or anything that impairs the appearance, quality, or character: Her fair reputation was ruined by gossip.
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

charity wrote:Dictinary defintion of "fair": free from blemish, imperfection, or anything that impairs the appearance, quality, or character: Her fair reputation was ruined by gossip.


Why do you think Joseph Smith chose to use the word "white" instead of "pure" in this instance?
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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Dictinary defintion of "fair": free from blemish, imperfection, or anything that impairs the appearance, quality, or character: Her fair reputation was ruined by gossip.


That would be pertinent information had I asked why Mary was "fair".
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

beastie wrote:
Dictinary defintion of "fair": free from blemish, imperfection, or anything that impairs the appearance, quality, or character: Her fair reputation was ruined by gossip.


That would be pertinent information had I asked why Mary was "fair".


When in doubt, don't answer the question that was asked; answer the question that you wish had been asked.
_sunstoned
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Re: White Mary, Mother of Jesus

Post by _sunstoned »

the road to hana wrote:
beastie wrote:1 Nephi 11

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
14 And it came to pass that I saw the aheavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins.


So why was Mary white?


Maybe Joseph Smith was racist. Ya think?



Well, he sure had a fixation on skin color. The whole story line of the Book of Mormon is about two groups. The white righteous group, and the evil group that God "cursed" with a "dark" skin. Of course if the evil dark group repented and started doing good stuff, then God would make them white again.

Reliance on the Book of Mormon as scripture basically painted the Mormon God as a racist, and ensured that 19th century racism would remain strong in the church well into the latter half of the 20th century.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

I think that, for people who believe someone who lived in the nineteenth century wrote the Book of Mormon, Mary being "white" makes all the sense in the world.

But how do believers explain this? Nephi wouldn't have been "white", and neither would have Mary, and the connotation "white" wouldn't have been emphasized in a community of darker skinned mid-eastern peoples. Why would someone who was darker skinned himself, and grew up surrounded by darker skinned peoples, see a darker skinned woman in a vision and declare her "white"?

We all know that other "whites" were changed to "pure". Here's Royal Skousen's explanation of why:

The third one is this 'white and delightsome' changed to 'pure and delightsome.' There has been more ink on this one than any one and it's all about modes and it's really, I think, an embarrassment. First of all the textual evidence, this change appears in the 1840 edition, we presume that it was made by Joseph Smith but we can't be sure, it just appears. It is probably not a typo, a misreading, because 'white' and 'pure' look so different, it probably was consciously done.

In preparing the 1981 edition, the Committee at the Church considered this reading in the 1840 edition and they made the change based on the 1840 edition. It is in my mind quite clear that there was no political motivation; they were not trying to remove racism from the Book of Mormon text. The reason this is very clear is there are eight other passages they did not touch which quite clearly could be identified as making the same preference for white skin and those are not removed. The brethren, I presume, and they've never said why, but... looked at the actual text of the 1840, decided that it was Joseph Smith's change--I think it probably was--and decided to follow that. It was a very conservative change and could not have really been motivated by political considerations. As far... we don't have the original manuscript here, the internal evidence suggests that 'white' is the original reading and it is because the word 'white' co-occurs with 'fair and delightsome' and refers with reference to skin color six times in the text. 'White' co-occurs with 'pure,' but only when referring to a state of heavenly perfection like in the resurrection; that's four times. So we don't know why the change was made by Joseph Smith. The 1981 was probably made out of deference to that change that they assumed that Joseph had made.


http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences ... ormon.html

This seems a concession that racism was the impetus for the emphasis on white skin color, but I'm assuming that, as a believer, Skousen believes the racism was in the Nephites. This really doesn't make sense, given the fact that Nephites would also have had darker skin in the first place. In fact, would someone of Israelite descent look THAT much lighter than someone of Mesoamerican descent?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_charity
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Post by _charity »

When I read that passage, I don't read about skin color.

There is a "natural" prejudice for light color. Blacks prefer lighter, as well.

http://tuftsjournal.tufts.edu/archive/2 ... skin.shtml

http://www.blackcollegewire.org/student ... _colorism/

Is the "dumb blonde" thing us darker haired and complected ones trying to "even" things up?
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