Mormons Turn Out for Romney in Nevada

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_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

I'm curious: Why does Coggins continuously cite frontpagemag.com as if it is an "intellectually serious" source?



The problem Scratch, as has been clear for a very long time, is that you do not know what a serious sources is. You have no basis for comparison. Your friend JAK thinks CNN and MSNBC are intellectually serious sources. How about you Scratch?

Frontpage contains news reportage, polemics, analysis, debate, symposiums, and interviews. Numerous leading academics, intellectuals, pundits, government officials, and journalists, both from here and abroad, have written for, or contributed to it for many years. Scratch is just unaware of this because he's not, as I said, well read and he just doesn't get around much, intellectually speaking.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

You sicken me to the point of violent regurgitation.


We are in awe of your intellectual repartee. Did you learn it at front page?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Coggins7 wrote:
No... Actually, I think his distortion of sources and failure to back up his claims are far worse. As is his flip-flopping and apparent zealotry.



Translation into Scratchese: "I have no idea what on earth I'm talking about, I've never read Horowitz or checked his sources, and I don't even know what Horowitz is talking about most of the time because I'm not particularly well read in history, politics, political history, or much of anthing."


Check this out:
Some stories Horowitz has used as evidence that U.S. colleges and universities are bastions of liberal indoctrination have been disputed.[21] For example, Horowitz told the story of a University of Northern Colorado student who received a failing grade on a final exam for refusing to write an essay arguing that George W. Bush is a war criminal.[22][23] A spokeswoman for the university said that the test question was not as described by Horowitz and that there were non-political reasons for the grade, which was not an F.[24] Horowitz responded that the student had indeed received an "F" on the exam but had appealed her grade on the course and been awarded a "B", and that the questions as supplied by UNC were evidence of indoctrination, not education, as claimed.[25][26]

Horowitz also claimed that a Pennsylvania State University biology professor showed his students the film Fahrenheit 9/11 just before the 2004 election in an attempt to influence their votes.[27][28] Horowitz later acknowledged that he had not been able to confirm this story.[29][30]

Finally, Horowitz has referred to the case of a student named Ahmad al-Qloushi, whose professor allegedly responded to an "irrational[ly]" "pro-American" essay by failing him and threatening to visit the Dean of International Admissions (who had the power to take away student visas) to make sure he received regular psychological treatment.[31][32] His professor admits suggesting al-Qloushi visit a counselor, but for anxiety resulting from events that had happened to al-Qloushi in Kuwait 10 years before rather than for his politics, and denies mentioning the Dean.[33][34][35][36]

Horowitz has also come under fire for material in his books, particularly The Professors.[37][38] For example, Media Matters for America claims that only 48 of the 100 (not 101) professors listed were criticized for in-class behavior and activities,[39] despite Horowitz's claim that he makes "a very clear distinction between what's done in the classroom" and "what professors say as citizens."[40] The group Free Exchange on Campus issued a 50-page report in May of 2006 in which they take issue with many of Horowitz's assertions in the book and describe what they see as factual errors, unsubstantiated assertions, and quotations which appear to be either misquoted or taken out of context.[41][42][43]
(from the Wiki entry on Horowitz)

It seems I am not alone in being concerned about Mr. Horowitz's status as a "serious intellectual."

The problem Scratch, as has been clear for a very long time, is that you do not know what a serious sources is. You have no basis for comparison. Your friend JAK thinks CNN and MSNBC are intellectually serious sources. How about you Scratch?

Frontpage contains news reportage, polemics, analysis, debate, symposiums, and interviews. Numerous leading academics, intellectuals, pundits, government officials, and journalists, both from here and abroad, have written for, or contributed to it for many years. Scratch is just unaware of this because he's not, as I said, well read and he just doesn't get around much, intellectually speaking.


That's odd. It seems to me that CNN often features "news reportage, polemics, analysis, debate, symposiums, and interviews." What is it that elevates frontpagemag.com into the "intellectually serious" stratosphere? Read on!

Here's an interesting quote from Jamie Glasov, who is the 2nd in command at frontpagemag.com:

Despite holding Canadian citizenship, he wrote in one of his articles: "Canada is based on anti-Americanism. It is built in opposition to America. Without anti-Americanism, Canada would cease to exist."
(from the wiki entry on Glasov)

Here's another intriguing tidbit about another of the contributors to this "intellectually serious" venue:

On May 4, 2007 [Lawrence] Auster was expelled from FrontPage Magazine, because of the controversy over an article he wrote in which he complained that "[e]ach story of black on white rape is reported in isolation, not presented as part of a larger pattern" and that "white women in this country are being targeted by black rapists."
(from the wiki entry on Auster)

I assume that Coggins disapproves of the dismissal, and agrees with Auster's theory?

In any case, it seems clear to me that frontpagemag.com is little more than a weepy-whine club for a bunch of soft-bellied conservatives whose feelings got hurt over getting called "racist."
_JAK
_Emeritus
Posts: 1593
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:04 pm

Re: The Present Tragedy for the US

Post by _JAK »

Quote JAK:
Never mind the ECONOMY.

Coggins7:
The economy's in pretty good shape. The numbers aren't telling us recession's around the corner, at least not yet.

JAK:
You must be reading October’s papers. I’ll presume you have yet to learn of the mortgage crisis, the lay off of tens of thousands of workers in the USA, the 2,000 point drop in the Dow. We are in a recession thanks to G.W. Bush policies and arrogance, ignorance and stupidity. A trillion dollar war against “weapons of mass destruction” (Bush ignorance) and a trade deficit in the hundreds of billions does not support your claim: “the economy’s in pretty good shape.”

You might begin your education by watching CNN and the other television networks along with reading the national news papers.

Quote JAK:
Never mind the trillion dollar war in Iraq.

Coggins7:
Interesting how leftists are so concerned about spending vast somes of money defending ourselves from our avowed enemies, but had no problem spending several times that destroying the inner city black family.

JAK:
Name-calling is not argument or evidence. You don’t even present an argument here.

Quote JAK:
Never mind the loss of jobs in the USA.

Coggins7:
Substantial tax cuts--income, corporate, double taxation on dividends, and the elimination of the death tax, the capital gains tax, and the AMT, will do wonders resolving that problem(which really isn't a problem, there have been no net job losses in America forever.

JAK:
Right. (Sarcasm) Continue to pass the G.W. Bush debt to generations further down the line. Not even any present Republicans would do as you suggest. Bush I said: “Read my lips, no new taxes.” Once in office, reality hit Bush I. He raised taxes.

More importantly, when Clinton left office, there was no deficit, unemployment was lower than today, we were not a war (on false claims by Bush II).

You, Coggins7, should run for President of the USA.

Coggins7 continues:
JAK doesn't know what he's talking about). Also a good idea would be significantly decreasing and streamlining the vast, oppressive regulatory federal web that strangles entrepreneurship and investment, degrades profitability and competitiveness, and bloats federal agencies at the expense of the economy.

JAK:
Again, Coggins7 evades the actual issues facing a 2008 US economy. The Republicans disagree on federal regulation. Virtually all the Republicans are presently running against Bush II.

Quote JAK:
America may have deserved 8 years of George Bush. They got it. Another term of the religious right, and the USA will be second to China or some other country which outperforms the USA.

Coggins7:
Knee slapping JAK. A real riot. The economic problems that afflict America are almost solely the effects of decades of liberal (socialist) economic policies, which have of late been picked up and imitated by the Republicans, and for which the "religious right" has not a kind word to say.

JAK:
What an ostrich! Bush II has been President for nearly 8 years, has taken the country from the black into the red (debit), has precipitated the loss of jobs, has taken the country to an endless war (passing it to the NEXT administration), subverted the Congress of the US, and has destroyed the economy of the country.

In addition, he has destroyed the influence, respect, and power of the US throughout the world.

Attempting to blame Democrats from eight years in the past is absurd. Not a single Republican running is quoting Bush II as having done good things for the US.

The “religious right” certainly had much more than a word to say when those fundamentalists voted for Bush II. The “religious right” was wrong and is wrong.

Coggins7:
Now, back to intellectual seriousness JAK...

Quote JAK:
It’s a dreadful prospect! (That of another four years of Republican domination)

Coggins7:
Yes, the idea of people like you being registered to vote certainly is.

JAK:
This is a very clear statement that you, Coggins7, oppose a democracy and oppose the right of people to vote who have views different from yours.

You make a good Republican as you would attempt to prevent a vote from those who would vote differently from you. Can you recall the Florida fiasco of 2000? Stop the voting, bring in the Supreme Court (which was stacked in favor of Bush).

Yes, Coggins7, if you were to have it your way, you would destroy the democracy even faster than the present administration has done.

Bush II is responsible for the past 8 years. The current economic mess, and most especially the deficit can be laid right at the feet of the Bush II administration.

JAK
------------------

Coggins7:
One person has told me that you are smart JAK, and that I should seriously try to debate you. This, however, looks to be the passion based tirade of a high school drop out who suffers from a terrible problem. Part of that problem is a vast, impregnable, and incorrigible ignorance, but the worst of it is ignorance combined with a belief that he is not ignorant. That's intellectually lethal.

JAK:
Well, let’s see, is there any refutation or argument or evidence here relevant to what JAK stated? There is none. We have merely ad hominem. Some feel evasion is the only alternative to engaging. That's particularly the case when people have nothing to present.


Coggins7:
But its far worse than this, based on the above. Your words here paint you as a unreflective, ideological hysteric who's politics and views of the world are almost purely emotional in nature.

JAK:
More personal attack --- no address of points.


Coggins7:
This performance (a mindless montage of MoveOn.org talking points that you should be ashamed, if you really conceive of yourself as an intellectually mature adult, of being seen with in public) indicates that you are not even worth my time conversing with. On to the JFK and 9/11 conspiracy theories JAK, on to Area 54 and the grassy knoll! Into the breach!

JAK:
Another tactic is to introduce off-topic and the irrelevant as if one had addressed the issues which lie before them. The issues above stated and not to be repeated absent an address of them.


Coggins7:
It would take far too much time and effort to bring JAK into the real world from his CNN imposed frontal lobotomy, and it would probably be an exercise in futility with a mentality such as this in any. I could quickly dispose of some of his points, but it would do no good. JAK is suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome, as well as being so flatly uneducated on so large a number of subjects, not limited to but including basic economics and recent social and political history, that the task is simply too daunting to contemplate.

JAK:
Now we see a further shift from the issues addressed previously to the irrelevant claim about “…time and effort…”

Yes, so far, no rejoinder/refutation what so ever regarding: “The Present Tragedy for the US” and “Network News Gathering.”

Also, Coggins7 offers no answer as to his pick for President of the US for 2008 and no defense of Bush II. To be sure, there is no defense for Bush II.

In addition, long copy-&-paste from others is ineffective as a response to issues which I raised and addressed.


JAK
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Re: The Present Tragedy for the US

Post by _Coggins7 »

JAK wrote:Quote JAK:
Never mind the ECONOMY.

Coggins7:
The economy's in pretty good shape. The numbers aren't telling us recession's around the corner, at least not yet.

JAK:
You must be reading October’s papers. I’ll presume you have yet to learn of the mortgage crisis, the lay off of tens of thousands of workers in the USA, the 2,000 point drop in the Dow. We are in a recession thanks to G.W. Bush policies and arrogance, ignorance and stupidity. A trillion dollar war against “weapons of mass destruction” (Bush ignorance) and a trade deficit in the hundreds of billions does not support your claim: “the economy’s in pretty good shape.”

You might begin your education by watching CNN and the other television networks along with reading the national news papers.

Quote JAK:
Never mind the trillion dollar war in Iraq.

Coggins7:
Interesting how leftists are so concerned about spending vast somes of money defending ourselves from our avowed enemies, but had no problem spending several times that destroying the inner city black family.

JAK:
Name-calling is not argument or evidence. You don’t even present an argument here.

Quote JAK:
Never mind the loss of jobs in the USA.

Coggins7:
Substantial tax cuts--income, corporate, double taxation on dividends, and the elimination of the death tax, the capital gains tax, and the AMT, will do wonders resolving that problem(which really isn't a problem, there have been no net job losses in America forever.

JAK:
Right. (Sarcasm) Continue to pass the G.W. Bush debt to generations further down the line. Not even any present Republicans would do as you suggest. Bush I said: “Read my lips, no new taxes.” Once in office, reality hit Bush I. He raised taxes.

More importantly, when Clinton left office, there was no deficit, unemployment was lower than today, we were not a war (on false claims by Bush II).

You, Coggins7, should run for President of the USA.

Coggins7 continues:
JAK doesn't know what he's talking about). Also a good idea would be significantly decreasing and streamlining the vast, oppressive regulatory federal web that strangles entrepreneurship and investment, degrades profitability and competitiveness, and bloats federal agencies at the expense of the economy.

JAK:
Again, Coggins7 evades the actual issues facing a 2008 US economy. The Republicans disagree on federal regulation. Virtually all the Republicans are presently running against Bush II.

Quote JAK:
America may have deserved 8 years of George Bush. They got it. Another term of the religious right, and the USA will be second to China or some other country which outperforms the USA.

Coggins7:
Knee slapping JAK. A real riot. The economic problems that afflict America are almost solely the effects of decades of liberal (socialist) economic policies, which have of late been picked up and imitated by the Republicans, and for which the "religious right" has not a kind word to say.

JAK:
What an ostrich! Bush II has been President for nearly 8 years, has taken the country from the black into the red (debit), has precipitated the loss of jobs, has taken the country to an endless war (passing it to the NEXT administration), subverted the Congress of the US, and has destroyed the economy of the country.

In addition, he has destroyed the influence, respect, and power of the US throughout the world.

Attempting to blame Democrats from eight years in the past is absurd. Not a single Republican running is quoting Bush II as having done good things for the US.

The “religious right” certainly had much more than a word to say when those fundamentalists voted for Bush II. The “religious right” was wrong and is wrong.

Coggins7:
Now, back to intellectual seriousness JAK...

Quote JAK:
It’s a dreadful prospect! (That of another four years of Republican domination)

Coggins7:
Yes, the idea of people like you being registered to vote certainly is.

JAK:
This is a very clear statement that you, Coggins7, oppose a democracy and oppose the right of people to vote who have views different from yours.

You make a good Republican as you would attempt to prevent a vote from those who would vote differently from you. Can you recall the Florida fiasco of 2000? Stop the voting, bring in the Supreme Court (which was stacked in favor of Bush).

Yes, Coggins7, if you were to have it your way, you would destroy the democracy even faster than the present administration has done.

Bush II is responsible for the past 8 years. The current economic mess, and most especially the deficit can be laid right at the feet of the Bush II administration.

JAK
------------------

Coggins7:
One person has told me that you are smart JAK, and that I should seriously try to debate you. This, however, looks to be the passion based tirade of a high school drop out who suffers from a terrible problem. Part of that problem is a vast, impregnable, and incorrigible ignorance, but the worst of it is ignorance combined with a belief that he is not ignorant. That's intellectually lethal.

JAK:
Well, let’s see, is there any refutation or argument or evidence here relevant to what JAK stated? There is none. We have merely ad hominem. Some feel evasion is the only alternative to engaging. That's particularly the case when people have nothing to present.


Coggins7:
But its far worse than this, based on the above. Your words here paint you as a unreflective, ideological hysteric who's politics and views of the world are almost purely emotional in nature.

JAK:
More personal attack --- no address of points.


Coggins7:
This performance (a mindless montage of MoveOn.org talking points that you should be ashamed, if you really conceive of yourself as an intellectually mature adult, of being seen with in public) indicates that you are not even worth my time conversing with. On to the JFK and 9/11 conspiracy theories JAK, on to Area 54 and the grassy knoll! Into the breach!

JAK:
Another tactic is to introduce off-topic and the irrelevant as if one had addressed the issues which lie before them. The issues above stated and not to be repeated absent an address of them.


Coggins7:
It would take far too much time and effort to bring JAK into the real world from his CNN imposed frontal lobotomy, and it would probably be an exercise in futility with a mentality such as this in any. I could quickly dispose of some of his points, but it would do no good. JAK is suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome, as well as being so flatly uneducated on so large a number of subjects, not limited to but including basic economics and recent social and political history, that the task is simply too daunting to contemplate.

JAK:
Now we see a further shift from the issues addressed previously to the irrelevant claim about “…time and effort…”

Yes, so far, no rejoinder/refutation what so ever regarding: “The Present Tragedy for the US” and “Network News Gathering.”

Also, Coggins7 offers no answer as to his pick for President of the US for 2008 and no defense of Bush II. To be sure, there is no defense for Bush II.

In addition, long copy-&-paste from others is ineffective as a response to issues which I raised and addressed.


JAK


You want me to respond in a substantive, critical manner to your points? The problem is only a few of your points are even worth responding to. Most of them, frankly, are, as I said, MoveOn.org talking points and convivial ideology packaged as news you've picked up on CNN.

I'll just respond to one of your points, and let the esteemed Dr. Thomas Sowell do my talking for me here.

Sub-Prime Politicians and Mortgage Loans By People Buying Homes
by Thomas Sowell (August 9, 2007)


Amid all the hand-wringing and finger-pointing as housing markets collapse, mortgage foreclosures skyrocket, and financial markets panic, there is very little attention being paid to the fundamental economic and political decisions that led to this mess. The growth in risky "sub-prime" mortgage loans by people buying homes they could not really afford has been a key factor in the collapse of housing markets, when the risks caught up with both borrowers and lenders.

But why were home buyers suddenly taking out so many risky loans and lenders suddenly arranging so much "creative" financing for these borrowers?

One clue is the concentration of such risky behavior in particular places and times. Interest-only mortgages, where nothing is being paid on the principal for the first few years, enable many people to get started on buying a home with lower mortgage payments at the outset. But of course it is only a matter of time before the mortgage payments go up and, unless their income has gone up enough in the meantime for them to be able to afford the new and higher payments, such borrowers can end up losing their homes. Such risky mortgage loans were rare just a few years ago. As of 2002, fewer than 10 percent of the new mortgages in the United States were of this type. But, by 2006, 31 percent of all new mortgages were of this "creative" or risky type.

In the San Francisco Bay Area, 66 percent of the new mortgages were of this type. Why this difference in times and places? Because housing prices were skyrocketing in some places and times, so that people of modest incomes had to go out on a limb to buy a house, if they expected to buy a house at all.

But why were housing prices going up so fast, in the first place? A number of studies of communities across the United States and in countries overseas turned up the same conclusion: Government restrictions on building. While many other factors can be involved -- rising incomes, population growth, construction costs -- a scrutiny of the times and places where housing prices doubled, tripled, or quadrupled within a decade shows that restrictions on building have been the key. Attractive and heady phrases like "open space," "smart growth" and the like have accompanied land use restrictions that made the cost of land rise in many places to the point where it greatly exceeded the cost of the homes built on the land. In places that resisted this political rhetoric, home prices remained reasonable, despite rising incomes and population growth.

Construction costs were seldom a major factor, for there was relatively little construction in places with severe building restrictions and skyrocketing home prices. In short, government has been the principal factor preventing the "affordable housing" that politicians talk about so much. Politicians have also been a key factor behind pushing lenders to lend to borrowers with lower prospects of being able to repay their loans.

The Community Reinvestment Act lets politicians pressure lenders to lend to people they might not lend to otherwise -- and the same politicians are quick to cry "exploitation" when the interest charged to high-risk borrowers reflects that risk. The huge losses of sub-prime lenders, some of whom have gone bankrupt, demonstrate again the consequences of letting politicians try to micro-manage the economy. Yet with all the finger-pointing in the media and in government, seldom is a finger pointed at the politicians at local, state and national levels who have played a key role in setting up the conditions that led to financial disasters for individual home buyers and for those who lent to them.

While financial markets are painfully adjusting and both lenders and borrowers are becoming less likely to take on so much risky "creative" financing in the future, politicians show no sign of changing. Why should they, when they have largely escaped blame for the disasters that their policies fostered?


In other words, it is the government's meddling in the housing market in the name of controlling economic behavioru and ingratiating itself to yet more consituencies, distoriting those markets and skewing incentives, and leftism, in this case the environmental movement, its political supporters, and the "smart growth" zoning schemes, driving housing prices into the stratosphere, that have caused the present housing crunch, not Bush, not conservatives, and not the "religious right".

OK junior, your homework is done, so you can watch the Playboy Channel for one hour before bedtime. After all, you have church tomorrow.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Re: The Present Tragedy for the US

Post by _Coggins7 »

JAK wrote:Quote JAK:
Never mind the ECONOMY.

Coggins7:
The economy's in pretty good shape. The numbers aren't telling us recession's around the corner, at least not yet.

JAK:
You must be reading October’s papers. I’ll presume you have yet to learn of the mortgage crisis, the lay off of tens of thousands of workers in the USA, the 2,000 point drop in the Dow. We are in a recession thanks to G.W. Bush policies and arrogance, ignorance and stupidity. A trillion dollar war against “weapons of mass destruction” (Bush ignorance) and a trade deficit in the hundreds of billions does not support your claim: “the economy’s in pretty good shape.”

You might begin your education by watching CNN and the other television networks along with reading the national news papers.

Quote JAK:
Never mind the trillion dollar war in Iraq.

Coggins7:
Interesting how leftists are so concerned about spending vast somes of money defending ourselves from our avowed enemies, but had no problem spending several times that destroying the inner city black family.

JAK:
Name-calling is not argument or evidence. You don’t even present an argument here.

Quote JAK:
Never mind the loss of jobs in the USA.

Coggins7:
Substantial tax cuts--income, corporate, double taxation on dividends, and the elimination of the death tax, the capital gains tax, and the AMT, will do wonders resolving that problem(which really isn't a problem, there have been no net job losses in America forever.

JAK:
Right. (Sarcasm) Continue to pass the G.W. Bush debt to generations further down the line. Not even any present Republicans would do as you suggest. Bush I said: “Read my lips, no new taxes.” Once in office, reality hit Bush I. He raised taxes.

More importantly, when Clinton left office, there was no deficit, unemployment was lower than today, we were not a war (on false claims by Bush II).

You, Coggins7, should run for President of the USA.

Coggins7 continues:
JAK doesn't know what he's talking about). Also a good idea would be significantly decreasing and streamlining the vast, oppressive regulatory federal web that strangles entrepreneurship and investment, degrades profitability and competitiveness, and bloats federal agencies at the expense of the economy.

JAK:
Again, Coggins7 evades the actual issues facing a 2008 US economy. The Republicans disagree on federal regulation. Virtually all the Republicans are presently running against Bush II.

Quote JAK:
America may have deserved 8 years of George Bush. They got it. Another term of the religious right, and the USA will be second to China or some other country which outperforms the USA.

Coggins7:
Knee slapping JAK. A real riot. The economic problems that afflict America are almost solely the effects of decades of liberal (socialist) economic policies, which have of late been picked up and imitated by the Republicans, and for which the "religious right" has not a kind word to say.

JAK:
What an ostrich! Bush II has been President for nearly 8 years, has taken the country from the black into the red (debit), has precipitated the loss of jobs, has taken the country to an endless war (passing it to the NEXT administration), subverted the Congress of the US, and has destroyed the economy of the country.

In addition, he has destroyed the influence, respect, and power of the US throughout the world.

Attempting to blame Democrats from eight years in the past is absurd. Not a single Republican running is quoting Bush II as having done good things for the US.

The “religious right” certainly had much more than a word to say when those fundamentalists voted for Bush II. The “religious right” was wrong and is wrong.

Coggins7:
Now, back to intellectual seriousness JAK...

Quote JAK:
It’s a dreadful prospect! (That of another four years of Republican domination)

Coggins7:
Yes, the idea of people like you being registered to vote certainly is.

JAK:
This is a very clear statement that you, Coggins7, oppose a democracy and oppose the right of people to vote who have views different from yours.

You make a good Republican as you would attempt to prevent a vote from those who would vote differently from you. Can you recall the Florida fiasco of 2000? Stop the voting, bring in the Supreme Court (which was stacked in favor of Bush).

Yes, Coggins7, if you were to have it your way, you would destroy the democracy even faster than the present administration has done.

Bush II is responsible for the past 8 years. The current economic mess, and most especially the deficit can be laid right at the feet of the Bush II administration.

JAK
------------------

Coggins7:
One person has told me that you are smart JAK, and that I should seriously try to debate you. This, however, looks to be the passion based tirade of a high school drop out who suffers from a terrible problem. Part of that problem is a vast, impregnable, and incorrigible ignorance, but the worst of it is ignorance combined with a belief that he is not ignorant. That's intellectually lethal.

JAK:
Well, let’s see, is there any refutation or argument or evidence here relevant to what JAK stated? There is none. We have merely ad hominem. Some feel evasion is the only alternative to engaging. That's particularly the case when people have nothing to present.


Coggins7:
But its far worse than this, based on the above. Your words here paint you as a unreflective, ideological hysteric who's politics and views of the world are almost purely emotional in nature.

JAK:
More personal attack --- no address of points.


Coggins7:
This performance (a mindless montage of MoveOn.org talking points that you should be ashamed, if you really conceive of yourself as an intellectually mature adult, of being seen with in public) indicates that you are not even worth my time conversing with. On to the JFK and 9/11 conspiracy theories JAK, on to Area 54 and the grassy knoll! Into the breach!

JAK:
Another tactic is to introduce off-topic and the irrelevant as if one had addressed the issues which lie before them. The issues above stated and not to be repeated absent an address of them.


Coggins7:
It would take far too much time and effort to bring JAK into the real world from his CNN imposed frontal lobotomy, and it would probably be an exercise in futility with a mentality such as this in any. I could quickly dispose of some of his points, but it would do no good. JAK is suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome, as well as being so flatly uneducated on so large a number of subjects, not limited to but including basic economics and recent social and political history, that the task is simply too daunting to contemplate.

JAK:
Now we see a further shift from the issues addressed previously to the irrelevant claim about “…time and effort…”

Yes, so far, no rejoinder/refutation what so ever regarding: “The Present Tragedy for the US” and “Network News Gathering.”

Also, Coggins7 offers no answer as to his pick for President of the US for 2008 and no defense of Bush II. To be sure, there is no defense for Bush II.

In addition, long copy-&-paste from others is ineffective as a response to issues which I raised and addressed.


JAK


You want me to respond in a substantive, critical manner to your points? The problem is only a few of your points are even worth responding to. Most of them, frankly, are, as I said, MoveOn.org talking points and convivial ideology packaged as news you've picked up on CNN.

I'll just respond to one of your points, and let the esteemed Dr. Thomas Sowell do my talking for me here.

Sub-Prime Politicians and Mortgage Loans By People Buying Homes
by Thomas Sowell (August 9, 2007)


Amid all the hand-wringing and finger-pointing as housing markets collapse, mortgage foreclosures skyrocket, and financial markets panic, there is very little attention being paid to the fundamental economic and political decisions that led to this mess. The growth in risky "sub-prime" mortgage loans by people buying homes they could not really afford has been a key factor in the collapse of housing markets, when the risks caught up with both borrowers and lenders.

But why were home buyers suddenly taking out so many risky loans and lenders suddenly arranging so much "creative" financing for these borrowers?

One clue is the concentration of such risky behavior in particular places and times. Interest-only mortgages, where nothing is being paid on the principal for the first few years, enable many people to get started on buying a home with lower mortgage payments at the outset. But of course it is only a matter of time before the mortgage payments go up and, unless their income has gone up enough in the meantime for them to be able to afford the new and higher payments, such borrowers can end up losing their homes. Such risky mortgage loans were rare just a few years ago. As of 2002, fewer than 10 percent of the new mortgages in the United States were of this type. But, by 2006, 31 percent of all new mortgages were of this "creative" or risky type.

In the San Francisco Bay Area, 66 percent of the new mortgages were of this type. Why this difference in times and places? Because housing prices were skyrocketing in some places and times, so that people of modest incomes had to go out on a limb to buy a house, if they expected to buy a house at all.

But why were housing prices going up so fast, in the first place? A number of studies of communities across the United States and in countries overseas turned up the same conclusion: Government restrictions on building. While many other factors can be involved -- rising incomes, population growth, construction costs -- a scrutiny of the times and places where housing prices doubled, tripled, or quadrupled within a decade shows that restrictions on building have been the key. Attractive and heady phrases like "open space," "smart growth" and the like have accompanied land use restrictions that made the cost of land rise in many places to the point where it greatly exceeded the cost of the homes built on the land. In places that resisted this political rhetoric, home prices remained reasonable, despite rising incomes and population growth.

Construction costs were seldom a major factor, for there was relatively little construction in places with severe building restrictions and skyrocketing home prices. In short, government has been the principal factor preventing the "affordable housing" that politicians talk about so much. Politicians have also been a key factor behind pushing lenders to lend to borrowers with lower prospects of being able to repay their loans.

The Community Reinvestment Act lets politicians pressure lenders to lend to people they might not lend to otherwise -- and the same politicians are quick to cry "exploitation" when the interest charged to high-risk borrowers reflects that risk. The huge losses of sub-prime lenders, some of whom have gone bankrupt, demonstrate again the consequences of letting politicians try to micro-manage the economy. Yet with all the finger-pointing in the media and in government, seldom is a finger pointed at the politicians at local, state and national levels who have played a key role in setting up the conditions that led to financial disasters for individual home buyers and for those who lent to them.

While financial markets are painfully adjusting and both lenders and borrowers are becoming less likely to take on so much risky "creative" financing in the future, politicians show no sign of changing. Why should they, when they have largely escaped blame for the disasters that their policies fostered?


In other words, it is the government's meddling in the housing market in the name of controlling economic behavior and ingratiating itself to yet more constituencies, distorting those markets and skewing incentives, and leftism, in this case the environmental movement, its political supporters, and their "smart growth" zoning schemes that take ever more land out of productive use, driving housing prices into the stratosphere, that have caused the present housing crunch, not Bush, not conservatives, and not the "religious right".

OK junior, your homework is done, so you can watch the Playboy Channel for one hour before bedtime. After all, you have church tomorrow.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_JAK
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The Present Tragedy for the US (continued)

Post by _JAK »

Coggins7,

I’m not generally responding to copy & pasted websites. (I’ll address this one later without reposting all the previous dialogue.)

My comments were directly to you. So if you’re unable to respond, I quite understand. You’re on the wrong side of all issues when you actually address an issue. That appears to be rare.

Thus far, you have addressed none of the points by directly quoting me and responding to analysis in context.

Given the present mortgage crisis, the 2,000 point drop in the Dow, the hundreds of thousands of jobs lost under Bush II, your contention that: “The economy's in pretty good shape. The numbers aren't telling us recession's around the corner, at least not yet” is an unsustainable position.

The evidence is against your position. You have made NO refutation nor have you supported your contentions. You just assert absent facts to support.

Ad hominem has gained you nothing regarding issues.

Who is your pick for President of the US in 2008?

You are silent to the question. Why? Evasion is no response, Coggins7.

No response to Bush I: “Read my lips, no new taxes.”

It was to make political points with those who oppose tax, but it was wrong. Bush I raised taxes to pay for services and programs people wanted. He, like you now, was poorly informed or simply lied about what he would do in order to gain votes.

You have made no refutation or even response to that point.

Americans want services which only the federal government can provide.

Bush II is now proposing tax cuts in the face of a trillion dollar debt. We owe China hundreds of billions of dollars.

Now, when Bill Clinton ended his 8 year term, we had seen the greatest period of prosperity in American history. AND, we had a surplus. The notion that we can borrow and spend (the Republican view) and just pass the debt on down to others is irresponsible and morally bankrupt.

Let’s see you address the issues. As you will see later, the prosperity of the Clinton Presidency and the reduction of the Reagan debt is historical fact.

Vice President Gore understood the visionary enthusiasm regarding the new order brought on by technology and sparkling minds. He was right on global warming while the conservative-right denied the undeniable evidence. Today, there is nearly universal scientific consensus that humans are major contributors to global warming.

The Democratic leadership was correct. The Bush administration has been wrong. Wrong on the Iraq war, wrong on the economy, wrong on the rights of individuals has been the Rove, Cheney, Bush mind-set. With the exception of Rice and Cheney, the rest of the Bush entourage is gone.

Remember C. Powell on We know they have weapons of mass destruction?

If your memory is selective, review the history of that lie perpetuated by all in the Bush II administration. And they invaded Iraq bombing from the air killing and maiming innocent Iraqis. Hans Blitz (the leader in the UN search for WMDs) stated: “I think the inspector should be objective, and we should answer and tell the world only what we have seen, and not tell the world that, yes, they positively have weapons of mass destruction.”

But the Bush II administration rejected the findings of the UN inspection team and ordered them out of Iraq. Blitz asked that the UN team continue its search. Their findings would have embarrassed the Bush II administration.

Dropping bombs from 30,000 feet in the night does not kill selectively. Bush lost moral respect for the USA in a preemptive attack on Iraq. And, his playbook was misinformed.

Cheney: They will welcome us with open arms. Wrong

There were no weapons of mass destruction. Hence, the Bush administration either lied or was grossly misninformed.

Neither is a compliment to the Bush II administration, Coggins7.

Given your track record in these few exchanges, I don’t expect you to respond to these points.

Thus far, you demonstrate you’ve been indoctrinated by extreme right-wing propaganda. That you imply that NBC is linked to the DNC is another example that you’re misinformed.

You did admit that you could not demonstrate that with objective evidence. That’s correct, you cannot. It’s false.

You have failed to refute that all the mainstream news organizations are in competition with one another for the best, most accurate information. That includes magazines like Newsweek, Time, US News & World Report along with some others.

Their credibility lies with getting the information correct to the largest extent possible. They work under great pressure to be first and to be right. They intend to be right (that is correct).

Compared with Bush II, the Clinton administration was a success as peacemaker ending the two-term Presidency with the US as least at peace generally around the world and respected around the world in a way which has been lost by Bush II.

In fact, after 12 years of Republican control of the Presidency, Clinton came to office amid high expectations for fundamental policy change. Early in his administration he reversed a number of Republican policies. He ended the federal prohibition on the use of fetal tissue for medical research, repealed rules restricting abortion counseling in federally funded health clinics, and used his appointment power to fulfill a promise to place many women and minorities in prominent government positions.

Bush II set back the leadership role of the US by his right-wing pandering to the likes of Jerry Falwell and James Dobson.

Now, Coggins7, how many current Republicans seeking the Presidency are quoting Bush II in complimentary terms as they campaign? The most hawkish John McCain has charged Bush II with incompetence regarding the Iraq War.

So that question again for you, Coggins7: Whom do you favor for the next President of the US? (You could still run yourself. Perhaps you could push for Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh.)

Now the copout as Coggins7 states:
You want me to respond in a substantive, critical manner to your points? The problem is only a few of your points are even worth responding to. Most of them, frankly, are, as I said, MoveOn.org talking points and convivial ideology packaged as news you've picked up on CNN.


I’ve never quoted “MoveOn.org.” It’s a straw man attack.

It’s no refutation to claim: “…only a few of your points are even worth responding to. “ That also is a copout.

Your problem is that the points are well made and you cannot refute them. Otherwise, you would be doing that, not cut & pasting.

Your attack of CNN is without merit. You’ve offered no objective evidence that CNN is a biased electronic news gathering organization. It’s merely more name-calling absent evidence.

It’s a further copout to state:
I'll just respond to one of your points, and let the esteemed Dr. Thomas Sowell do my talking for me here.

As I previously stated, I’m not discussing some copy & pasted statement. What’s the matter, Coggins7, aren’t you capable of addressing issues? It appears you are not. Are you a puppet?

You much prefer ad hominem as this following line demonstrates:

Coggins7:
”OK junior, your homework is done, so you can watch the Playboy Channel for one hour before bedtime. After all, you have church tomorrow.”


Now, let’s address this:
Coggins7:
In other words, it is the government's meddling in the housing market in the name of controlling economic behavioru [sic] and ingratiating itself to yet more constituencies, distoriting [sic] those markets and skewing incentives, and leftism, in this case the environmental movement, its political supporters, and the "smart growth" zoning schemes, driving housing prices into the stratosphere, that have caused the present housing crunch, not Bush, not conservatives, and not the "religious right".


You’re mis-paraphrasing the very source you use. (You also don’t spell very well.)

When did the article state the “risky behavior” began? And who was in office at the time? Bush II was in the Presidency in 2002. Your source states that: “As of 2002, fewer than 10 percent of the new mortgages in the United States were of this type.”

Your source also states: “While many other factors can be involved -- rising incomes, population growth, construction costs -- a scrutiny of the times and places where housing prices doubled, tripled, or quadrupled within a decade shows that restrictions on building have been the key.” (My emphasis)

Multiple factors were involved in the policies of easy money for mortgage loans.

It was the “housing market” itself which encouraged easy credit and low-cost loans. You place the blame in the wrong place. Bush II wanted the economy to look good so that he could look good since the invasion of Iraq was making him look bad.. Hence the government the Bush’s government was doing the bidding of Bush.

There is no escaping the law (the government) with regard to interest rates and what loan sources are permitted to do. Your statement at the end (quoted above) is flawed with regard to the very source you intended to use supporting an attack on government. Look at the dates when the interests rates began to be lowered and continued, continued to be lowered with the approval of the Bush II White House.

There was nothing “leftism” about the over-reach of the Bush II administration in its effort to make the general economy look very prosperous. At the same time, Bush II was pouring hundreds of billions into a senseless, mindless attack on Iraq.

Had the housing market looked as bad is it was becoming, it’s unlikely that the Congress (the government) would have allowed the housing market to be so become irresponsible. You’re quite mis-reading the picture regarding the Bush II involvement in the housing-market bubble. While squandering hundreds of billions (now about 8 billion a month), Bush speeches were of how robust the American economy was. How often did Bush II claim robust economy while taking the country down deficit road with spending? We cannot begin to count the times.

If you think that banks are not conservative and not pro a conservative White House, you are poorly informed. You demonstrate your poor information in your piece at the end and you misinterpret the statement of your own source.

Bush II was scheming from the very beginning of his Presidency to distort and manipulate what he thought to be to his advantage. Because he was ignorant, arrogant, autocratic, and misinformed, his administration did nothing to curtail the false appearance of a skyrocketing economy. In fact, he encouraged it. (And we are in a recession by virtually all economists’ account)

It was the same brainless, ignorant borrow and spend which typifies the Bush Presidency even as he did exactly that with regard to making war on Iraq.

Thus, we went from a surplus at the end of the Clinton administration to a trillion dollar deficit at the end of the Bush II Presidency.

Republican mentality: Spend what you don’t have. The latest budget projections from the Congressional Budget Office indicate that one out of every three dollars the federal government spends this year outside of the self-funded Social Security system will be paid for by borrowing. This will be the highest share of deficit-financed spending since World War II.

Now why are we in this fix? In short the policies and politics of Bush II. President Bush’s return to huge deficit spending represents a sharp break from the recent past. As I previously stated, during President Clinton’s second term, the government actually ran on-budget surpluses and began paying down the national debt. The new level of deficit spending exceeds the previous records set during the Reagan and George Herbert W. Bush administrations, when on-budget deficits averaged 25 percent and 28 percent of on-budget spending, respectively. For further detail, read this.

In short, Coggins7, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Further, you have failed to address the issues which I laid before you with direct quotation and response to my comments.

By contrast, I have generally quoted you directly and addressed your flawed mentality on all these points and issues.

JAK
_LCD2YOU
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Post by _LCD2YOU »

As a formerly Republican voter who voted for Reagan in '84, Bush 41 in '88 and '92, Dole in '96 I could no longer hold my nose and vote for such an idiot as was presented by the GOP in the smug, moronic dweeb that is Bush 43.

He is without a doubt the worst president this country has ever seen. The only thing that has kept Bush 43 for being impeached due to lying or gross incompetence (WMD again are where in Iraq?) is that the four scariest words in the English language ware, "Good morning President Cheney".

As for Mitt and the Mormon faithful in Nevada, so? This surprises who on this board? The Morg faithful turned out and voted.

The real issue is not that Mitt got the LDS vote is that could the LDS faithful in Utah ever vote for a non-Mormon for Governor like Catholic Mass. did for Romney?

The answer, no way in hell would the bretheren let someone like that in control of "their state".
Knowledge is Power
Power Corrupts
Study Hard and
Become EVIL!
_Doctor Steuss
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Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Word on the street is that Mormons also turned out for Obama... but that's not exactly news-worthy I suppose.
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_harmony
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Re: The Present Tragedy for the US

Post by _harmony »

JAK wrote:More importantly, when Clinton left office, there was no deficit, unemployment was lower than today, we were not a war (on false claims by Bush II).


No deficient?

The eye-popping $9 trillion gross national debt is owed by the "General Fund." That's the part funded by our income taxes. Half of that goes for the military and to pay interest on the debt.


link: http://zfacts.com/p/461.html

With the federal government beginning a new fiscal year Monday, the national debt now stands at about $8.5 trillion — or about $540 billion bigger than it was a year ago. ... Nearly a third of the current national debt has been added since 2000.


link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15064460/

So... 9 trillion in debt, 1/3 of it added since 2000. That means we were 6 trillion in debt prior to 2000. I think Clinton had a hand in at least some of that 6 trillion.
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