Gossip

[Guest]

I've witnessed quite a bit of gossipy behavior -- wondering if this is something common in the Church? What about at ex-mo meetups? Is it fun to talk about private lives? Whispering, guess what I know about so and so?

'Cause I've been informed that this is pretty common. Is this created by the Church culture? Do you think?

Let's define gossip as not something that directly relates to you but hearing something 2nd hand and passing it on and talking to others about what you've heard. Does that work? Nod your head yes. :)

Unfortunately, gossip does occur in the Church, though it is certainly not a practice that is restricted mostly to the Church (I have observed its wide-spread presence among many cultures--look for example at the circulation numbers of gossip papers and magazines like National Enquirer, People, US, etc., or the viewrship numbers for gossip shows like ET, Access Holiwood, the VIEW, etc.).

Nor, can the practice (whether participated in by members or former members) be faulted to the Church or its culture. It is strongly discouraged in our scriptures, lesson material, and council from Chruch leaders--and rightly so. It is a practice that tends to degrade all parties concerned, though it can provide the temporary illusion of making the gossipers feel better about themselves.

For that reason, I am somewhat averse to and shy away from the practice. And, because of the amount of gossip that goes on around here, I have in the past attempted to broach the subject for the purpose of improving things, but was met with no small resistence, and consequently have periodically been inclined to take a break from the board for a time.

But, that may just be me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It's always just you, isn't it? Aren't you lonely?

What precisely do you see as gossip on the board? I think we may have different definitions. You mentioned gossipy behavior when there was criticism of lavish temples -- uhhh.... I don't geddit! What is gossipy about talking about that? I didn't understand it in that thread when you stated it and still don't.

I am fine with using your definition. Please explain how it doesn't apply to the hords of threads here discussing MA&D and the participants there, or the threads on Liz is a "rat fink", Quinn, Oaks, Tom Cruise and Daniel Peterson.

However, perhaps my definition is a bit more broad that yours, and includes counterproductive or non-productive gripes, complaints, piling on, stereotyping, name-calling, or other such things which tend to degrade all parties concerned. In other words I see gossip as group discussions which tear other people down. Maybe it is just me, but I see an aweful lot of that going on here.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Ah! We are in agreement then! I agree that those threads ARE gossipy. I've just seen you mention gossip in one thread and it was the temple thread -- which struck me as odd.

I think gossip is a bit different than the "bully threads" which is what I like to call them. Yet, if you look at the rat fink thread you'll see it's not only a bully thread (targeting one particular poster on non-LDS related issues), but also a gossip thread!

I'm sort of sick of this board. I'm really sick of no one saying anything when poor conduct occurs. I did for a long time -- and quite frankly becoming the target and not having ANYONE defend me when my life was threatened -- then later having personal in real life issues exposed on the board made me question how all these wonderful people that were indoctrinated with "morals" really are. I'll stick with my ethics, I suppose.

I'm not perfect. I try! Damn, I try so hard. The LDS Church does a fairly miserable job with incorporating empathy and ethics in its members. I've been on so many other boards. Never seen the hatred and personal vendettas as seen on this one. The glee when someone steps outside the norms so that everyone can dogpile. I've never had anyone relish in my sobs. Ever, until this board. I don't know what to make of it? There are some good people here -- but the few that are rabid are outspoken and drown out the good too often.

[_harmony]

b

I'm sort of sick of this board. I'm really sick of no one saying anything when poor conduct occurs. I did for a long time -- and quite frankly becoming the target and not having ANYONE defend me when my life was threatened -- then later having personal in real life issues exposed on the board made me question how all these wonderful people that were indoctrinated with "morals" really are. I'll stick with my ethics, I suppose.

I defending others (even those that still choose to humiliate me on the board) constantly. The man that just said something about me in this thread was defended by me less than a few weeks ago. It's just is more than I can handle from humanity. It's disappointing and has made me very cynical.

If we got all upright and indignent every single time poor conduct occurs here, we'd never discuss anything! Every thread would be hijacked. Every discussion would go down a rabbit hole or two or ten.

Deal with it however you have to deal with it, but complaining about poor conduct is too time consuming. It's the price we pay for open moderation, and I, for one, will continue to endure the slings and arrows in order to never have anyone put a muzzle on me. I've been muzzled, banned, capped, and my every post shadowed. I prefer the open moderation, thankyouverymuch.

[Guest]

b

I'm sort of sick of this board. I'm really sick of no one saying anything when poor conduct occurs. I did for a long time -- and quite frankly becoming the target and not having ANYONE defend me when my life was threatened -- then later having personal in real life issues exposed on the board made me question how all these wonderful people that were indoctrinated with "morals" really are. I'll stick with my ethics, I suppose.

I defending others (even those that still choose to humiliate me on the board) constantly. The man that just said something about me in this thread was defended by me less than a few weeks ago. It's just is more than I can handle from humanity. It's disappointing and has made me very cynical.

If we got all upright and indignent every single time poor conduct occurs here, we'd never discuss anything! Every thread would be hijacked. Every discussion would go down a rabbit hole or two or ten.

Deal with it however you have to deal with it, but complaining about poor conduct is too time consuming. It's the price we pay for open moderation, and I, for one, will continue to endure the slings and arrows in order to never have anyone put a muzzle on me. I've been muzzled, banned, capped, and my every post shadowed. I prefer the open moderation, thankyouverymuch.

You were all over a thread complaining about poor behavior! Telling me we needed to think about how we were viewed by others! Remember? You were very concerned about sexual innuendos. Want me to post the thread where you bitch for pages about how everyone should act better?

I sort of think you don't care 'cause it's not you. You think it's hunky dory when people are shamed for stepping outside the norms you set, huh? Well, I have a "norm". Mine is the golden rule. Ever heard of it? I have and I'm a god damn heathen.

You're very welcome. :)

[_Ray A]

I've been on so many other boards. Never seen the hatred and personal vendettas as seen on this one. The glee when someone steps outside the norms so that everyone can dogpile. I've never had anyone relish in my sobs. Ever, until this board. I don't know what to make of it? There are some good people here -- but the few that are rabid are outspoken and drown out the good too often.

Now I know why I like you so much.

[_Mary]

Ray, Of all the hundreds of people in the ward and stake, I only heard about the two cases that I mentioned, so it's not common (hopefully).

On the married couple the information came through the Stake President's son, whom I happened to be dating at the time..(long term dating).
I don't know the context of course, or why the SP told his son. Perhaps the initial divulgance was well meaning, but it got around....Actually, I remember asking someone else if the couples 'problem' was really something that the church should be concerned about. Maybe I didn't help things.

As for the other person with the problem, he was oblivious I think, but I even knew he had to wait 6 months to get a temple recommend because of his 'problem'. People gossip. If it didn't come from him, who did it come from?

People box people, it makes them feel comfortable. I saw it all the time in the church where it did seem to me to be more common, simply because members I think are using the 'gospel' to box, under the guise of righteous judgement in some cases and because the environment is so close knit.

I've been on the receiving end of some inappropriate boxing (read gossip) in my time. I wasn't good enough (with inactive parents and probably because of age retrospectivley looking at it) to date the SP's son. Believe me when I say that at the time there was a concerted effort on the part of the SP's wife and a few meddlesome members to split us (both 16) up. Not paranoia on my part. I've recently had contact with the SP's son through face book who has admitted it went on and that 'he' was also put under great pressure, even to the point of being carted off on a mission at the unusually young age of 18. I can laugh at it now, moreso than the SP's son I think, but at the time it was pretty horrendous. I even got locked in a room once by members when he knocked on their door to see me...(crazy), was stopped from going up to young adults at 18, and was not allowed to go on YA activities even when invited (at 18) The gossip that was doing the rounds then was terrible. Thank goodness for the less judgemental people in the ward that supported me otherwise I think I would left the church then. (lol, it's the one period of my life that still makes me really angry when I think about it...)

Mary

[_Moniker]

I've been on the receiving end of some inappropriate boxing (read gossip) in my time. I wasn't good enough (with inactive parents and probably because of age retrospectivley looking at it) to date the SP's son. Believe me when I say that at the time there was a concerted effort on the part of the SP's wife and a few meddlesome members to split us (both 16) up. Not paranoia on my part. I've recently had contact with the SP's son through face book who has admitted it went on and that 'he' was also put under great pressure, even to the point of being carted off on a mission at the unusually young age of 18. I can laugh at it now, moreso than the SP's son I think, but at the time it was pretty horrendous. I even got locked in a room once by members when he knocked on their door to see me...(crazy), was stopped from going up to young adults at 18, and was not allowed to go on YA activities even when invited (at 18) The gossip that was doing the rounds then was terrible. Thank goodness for the less judgemental people in the ward that supported me otherwise I think I would left the church then. (lol, it's the one period of my life that still makes me really angry when I think about it...)

Mary

Mary, I'm so glad you joined in this conversation. I imagine it is hard not to be angry. You got locked in a room so the boy couldn't contact you? That seems so bizarre. I can understand parents doing that -- but just other members? It's very difficult to know how to handle people that do meddle and then tell you that they're helping you. They can seem so sincere -- and I'm certain to an extent they may be. I had never, ever, ever seen that happening before interactions on this board -- that those (other than your family) can interfere in your life as if they knew what was best for you. It is truly a foreign idea to me! And you're right, it does come down to being judged. In many ways.

This thread has truly been so insightful!

[_Ray A]

On the married couple the information came through the Stake President's son, whom I happened to be dating at the time..(long term dating).

Mary, I am quite appalled if this is the case.

I don't know the context of course, or why the SP told his son. Perhaps the initial divulgance was well meaning, but it got around....Actually, I remember asking someone else if the couples 'problem' was really something that the church should be concerned about. Maybe I didn't help things.

No divulgence of private and confidential information in a personal interview can be "well meaning". If that did happen, I'd confront the leaders themselves. No point writing the First Presidency, who would "refer it to your local leaders".

As for the other person with the problem, he was oblivious I think, but I even knew he had to wait 6 months to get a temple recommend because of his 'problem'. People gossip. If it didn't come from him, who did it come from?

I don't know, and I hate to even think a leader would disclose this. Maybe he did confide to personal friends?

People box people, it makes them feel comfortable. I saw it all the time in the church where it did seem to me to be more common, simply because members I think are using the 'gospel' to box, under the guise of righteous judgement in some cases and because the environment is so close knit. I've been on the receiving end of some inappropriate boxing (read gossip) in my time. I wasn't good enough (with inactive parents) to date the SP's son. Believe me when I say that at the time there was a concerted effort on the part of the SP's wife and a few meddlesome members to split us both up. Not paranoia on my part. I've recently had contact with the SP's son through face book who has admitted it went on and that 'he' was also put under great pressure, even to the point of being carted off on a mission at the unusually young age of 18. I can laugh at it now, moreso than the SP's son I think, but at the time it was pretty horrendous. I even got locked in a room once by members when he knocked on their door to see me...(crazy) The gossip that was doing the rounds then was terrible. Thank goodness for the less judgemental people in the ward that supported me otherwise I think I would left the church then.

I can relate to this in some sense, Mary. Although I was active in the Church, the stake president lay all blame on me for my divorce (whispering campaigns). This was one of the judgements that led me to eventually withdraw from the Church, totally, in 2001. He asked me, "do you feel gulity?" Guilty for what? Taking her away from the Church, and finding the love of her life? WHY should I feel guilty for that? She was married to a fake, and found her soulmate in a man totally different, her soulmate. Why should I feel gulity for that? The irony of this is that if I had not been active in the Church, I would not have been consigned the "patriarchal role" of saving my family. But because I was active at the time, the SP tried to lay blame on ME. I "should have known better". I should have "been the leader". So I got the blame. Not my ex-wife. These are things people don't know about. To this day I am still blamed. My ex-wife found her soulmate, and she was happy. But in the "eternal scheme of things", I will be eating bread crumbs with rats. By the way, I was happy for her. How she endured 22 years of a conservative Mormon asshole like me is beyond understanding.

And that's what "fake" about "the Church". You don't marry someone who loves you, but someone who loves "the Church". When "the Church" fails, he/she finds her true lover, then you become dog weetbix.

No worries. I am happy. This is not a gripe. I wish I was as smart at 19 as I am now. The "whispers" at the time of my divorce were vicious, and I don't know, maybe "the bishop" did let some of that distorted information out. All they were concerned about was activity - not what brought each of us more meaning and happiness.

[_Mary]

Moniker, It was a formative period for me...16 to 18, and then on to 21. I think that people wouldn't have meddled had my parents been active.
I think that is a big part of it. If they had been active then probably the SP and his wife could have used their influence through them. They couldn't, so they had to turn to other members of the ward for pressure. Again, I'm really not being paranoid. My mother was told a lot of it by the Visiting Teachers. There were a core group of people, probably more than I realised at the time, that were very supportive of me. But it doesn't help when we are talking people in authority.

Actually, I always consider it ironic that the two families that were the nastiest (not sure if that is the right word) at the time...(and the SP's wife did later apologise I have to say, though it was on the basis that I had changed...which was funny because I hadn't, it was just her perception that had changed) are the ones that have done the 'best' in terms of higher callings in the church. Their loyalty to the LDS faith is unquestioned and they have been rewarded despite their dismal record (the wives anyway) with gossip, nepotism and brown-nosing (and that's me gossiping lol). Anyways, they are now in their 60's, so hopefully 'they' have changed!! And I need to learn to forgive. Retrospectively they did me a favour anyways. And all the judgement that was heaped on me came back to haunt the SP sadly, with all of their own children, and I do mean all.

Ray, wierd how it works huh!!! I didn't leave the church at the time, because I was determined that I wouldn't leave for any other reason than a good one, and leaving because someone hurt me wasn't a good enough reason for me if I still believed in the fundamental truth claims of the church. Life worked itself out and I stopped believing.

Mary

[_beastie]

I do believe the tendency to gossip is worse in the LDS community. Heaven knows the leaders fuss about it enough. I think there are a couple of reasons for this. First, gossip is a human tendency with an evolutionary purpose. In our small tribal communities, reciprocal altruism was practiced in order to enhance survival. You share with me when I am down and out, and I'll return the favor one day. This is a strong tendency seen in some animal communities as well. It makes a lot of sense. But part of what makes reciprocal altruism work in terms of survival is the factor of trust - when you do a good deed for someone in need, you TRUST they will return the favor one day. So a person's character and trustworthiness is a legitimate issue. Can you trust that person to share with you when YOU'RE in need? If so, sharing with them when they're in need is a good bet. If not, no, it's not a good bet. Keep what you have to enhance your own survival, don't share, if the person you're sharing with will ignore YOU when you're in need.

I believe this is the origin of the impulse to gossip. We share information about one another because our ancestors shared information about one another in order to determine whether someone was trustworthy enough to deserve reciprocal altruism.

So when you have a universal tendency, it doesn't take much encouragement for that tendency to become inflamed, and there are other elements that inflame it within Mormonism. One has been noted, which is that members are encouraged, to a certain extent, to "watch out" for each other in terms of behavior. The home teaching program was partially created for that reason - not just to be a system of helping each other, but watching each other. In addition, to a large degree, Mormonism really is a work-based system of salvation. Yes, I know that the atonement of Jesus is the "grace" part, the part that ensures physical resurrection for all and is the entry key to exaltation. But it is still work based, because it is one's works that earn a degree of exaltation, versus grace based religions where the act of belief itself ensures salvation. So what people do are really important for their ETERNAL welfare, so intervening to correct behavior is actually a noble act, in terms of eternity.

The third factor is that Mormon communities are extremely close-knit. A large percentage of an LDS person's world revolves around their ward. A lot of time is spent there, for one thing, and for another, LDS really are a "peculiar people" and take pride in that, and that means they don't really fit well in the larger community. (by the way, this is part of the reason exiting the LDS church is so hard, because so much of one's life IS the LDS church) This extraordinary level of time spent together as well as being a close-knit community is going to inevitably increase the amount of gossip.

And yes, these tendencies aren't magically erased just because someone exits the LDS church.

[_Moniker]

Moniker, It was a formative period for me...16 to 18, and then on to 21. I think that people wouldn't have meddled had my parents been active.
I think that is a big part of it. If they had been active then probably the SP and his wife could have used their influence through them. They couldn't, so they had to turn to other members of the ward for pressure. Again, I'm really not being paranoid. My mother was told a lot of it by the Visiting Teachers. There were a core group of people, probably more than I realised at the time, that were very supportive of me. But it doesn't help when we are talking people in authority.

Actually, I always consider it ironic that the two families that were the nastiest (not sure if that is the right word) at the time...(and the SP's wife did later apologise I have to say, though it was on the basis that I had changed...which was funny because I hadn't, it was just her perception that had changed) are the ones that have done the 'best' in terms of higher callings in the church. Their loyalty to the LDS faith is unquestioned and they have been rewarded despite their dismal record (the wives anyway) with gossip, nepotism and brown-nosing (and that's me gossiping lol). Anyways, they are now in their 60's, so hopefully 'they' have changed!! And I need to learn to forgive. Retrospectively they did me a favour anyways. And all the judgement that was heaped on me came back to haunt the SP sadly, with all of their own children, and I do mean all.

Ray, wierd how it works huh!!! I didn't leave the church at the time, because I was determined that I wouldn't leave for any other reason than a good one, and leaving because someone hurt me wasn't a good enough reason for me if I still believed in the fundamental truth claims of the church. Life worked itself out and I stopped believing.

Mary

Mary, I can understand the wondering if you're paranoid. It is intensely gratifying when you realize you're not. :)

I can relate in so many ways to what you say about leaving the Church. I'm like that in so many areas of my life. I'm a stubborn 'lil bugger too -- stick it out 'cause I won't slink off. I know that's not always the best thing to do. I recognize I do this 'though! I truly do... I won't leave because someone hurt me. I leave when I'm good and ready. Essentially taking the power to decide back for myself. Perhaps, not always the best thing to do? Yet, it always feels better to go out in control then being run out by a group of people such as you describe above.