Gossip

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_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

beastie wrote:I do believe the tendency to gossip is worse in the LDS community. Heaven knows the leaders fuss about it enough. I think there are a couple of reasons for this. First, gossip is a human tendency with an evolutionary purpose. In our small tribal communities, reciprocal altruism was practiced in order to enhance survival. You share with me when I am down and out, and I'll return the favor one day. This is a strong tendency seen in some animal communities as well. It makes a lot of sense. But part of what makes reciprocal altruism work in terms of survival is the factor of trust - when you do a good deed for someone in need, you TRUST they will return the favor one day. So a person's character and trustworthiness is a legitimate issue. Can you trust that person to share with you when YOU'RE in need? If so, sharing with them when they're in need is a good bet. If not, no, it's not a good bet. Keep what you have to enhance your own survival, don't share, if the person you're sharing with will ignore YOU when you're in need.

I believe this is the origin of the impulse to gossip. We share information about one another because our ancestors shared information about one another in order to determine whether someone was trustworthy enough to deserve reciprocal altruism.

So when you have a universal tendency, it doesn't take much encouragement for that tendency to become inflamed, and there are other elements that inflame it within Mormonism. One has been noted, which is that members are encouraged, to a certain extent, to "watch out" for each other in terms of behavior. The home teaching program was partially created for that reason - not just to be a system of helping each other, but watching each other. In addition, to a large degree, Mormonism really is a work-based system of salvation. Yes, I know that the atonement of Jesus is the "grace" part, the part that ensures physical resurrection for all and is the entry key to exaltation. But it is still work based, because it is one's works that earn a degree of exaltation, versus grace based religions where the act of belief itself ensures salvation. So what people do are really important for their ETERNAL welfare, so intervening to correct behavior is actually a noble act, in terms of eternity.

The third factor is that Mormon communities are extremely close-knit. A large percentage of an LDS person's world revolves around their ward. A lot of time is spent there, for one thing, and for another, LDS really are a "peculiar people" and take pride in that, and that means they don't really fit well in the larger community. (by the way, this is part of the reason exiting the LDS church is so hard, because so much of one's life IS the LDS church) This extraordinary level of time spent together as well as being a close-knit community is going to inevitably increase the amount of gossip.

And yes, these tendencies aren't magically erased just because someone exits the LDS church.


I do understand so many of our evolutionary tendencies for altruism -- it is absolutely necessary for survival. The tricky part, for me, is who do you trust? You have to determine that, so you need to look to past deeds, their ability to share when others are in need. I share too much and gain such intrinsic gratification from it that I often don't care if others likewise will share when I'm in need. I've not been in need too often in my life and just share with no real concern for how I may be in need at a later time. It is difficult, for me, to understand when others turn away when there is someone in need.

I mentioned in another thread that it appears, to me, that much of the intrinsic rewards of giving and good deeds are wrapped in extrinsic rewards in the Church. I think when you always do something with the knowledge that it is less about helping others but really about helping yourself that this can strip away so much of the intrinsic nature of the deeds. This very well play a large part into this mentality as well.

I agree that the focus on works seems extremely stressed in the Church. In other faiths sinners are rather embraced. I don't really see much of that in the LDS Church. I actually see lots of scorn -- which was surprising to witness from Christians. Of course I understand better now that mainstream Christian emphasis is really very, very different from LDS.

Great post, Beastie!
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Moniker wrote:I agree that the focus on works seems extremely stressed in the Church.


"after all we can do". It's part of the canon.

In other faiths sinners are rather embraced.


I'm curious where you got this idea.

I don't really see much of that in the LDS Church. I actually see lots of scorn -- which was surprising to witness from Christians.


The LDS view of the Atonement is different from mainstream Christianity.

I think the scorn comes from the false idea that Mormons are supposed to be working towards perfection, and in order to maintain the facade, we all have to look like we're well on the way. And so when we stumble, it's not just us that is judged as lacking; the whole church is judged as lacking. At least that's the way I think members view other member's struggles with sin. That the struggling member has let us all down.

Of course I understand better now that mainstream Christian emphasis is really very, very different from LDS.


More than most members will ever know. Only if you've converted from a mainstream Christian church will you understand exactly how different it is.
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

harmony wrote:
In other faiths sinners are rather embraced.


I'm curious where you got this idea.


From personal experience. Seeing first hand the reach out to those that are imprisoned, those that are working the streets, those that are in the most destitute of situations that they may have even created for themselves. Not shamed because they were a fornicator, an adulterer, or even a murderer -- because it's all forgiven by a loving God when you ask for such forgiveness. I've witnessed that there is forgiveness and that past sins, even current sins, matter not because there is God's grace -- and if you strive to do better past deeds are of no consequence. I don't see that in the LDS Church emphasized so much...

I see a great deal of emphasis on appearance in the LDS Church -- even down to what people wear. I know I visited this Baptist Church once (I've been to pretty much every denomination in my area -- just 'cause I'm not a Christian does not mean I don't go to Church:) and there were people in blue jeans. Not that blue jeans make you a sinner -- just the lack of concern over the outer shell and more an emphasis on the inner person.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Moniker wrote:From personal experience. Seeing first hand the reach out to those that are imprisoned, those that are working the streets, those that are in the most destitute of situations that they may have even created for themselves. Not shamed because they were a fornicator, an adulterer, or even a murderer -- because it's all forgiven by a loving God when you ask for such forgiveness. I've witnessed that there is forgiveness and that past sins, even current sins, matter not because there is God's grace -- and if you strive to do better past deeds are of no consequence. I don't see that in the LDS Church emphasized so much...


I think you're probably right, in the context of the specialized populations you're referencing. I'm not so sure, in reference to the general population. Having attended Catholic funerals before and heard the dead person consigned to purgatory, I'm not so sure forgiveness for sins is even possible, the Confessional to the contrary. Protestant faiths may give lip service to overlooking sin, but according to some of my friends, that's not the case in the general population.

I see a great deal of emphasis on appearance in the LDS Church -- even down to what people wear. I know I visited this Baptist Church once (I've been to pretty much every denomination in my area -- just 'cause I'm not a Christian does not mean I don't go to Church:) and there were people in blue jeans. Not that blue jeans make you a sinner -- just the lack of concern over the outer shell and more an emphasis on the inner person.


Boy, if that isn't the truth! LDS are a very appearance-minded bunch, that's for sure.
_wenglund
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Re: Gossip

Post by _wenglund »

Moniker wrote: Ah! We are in agreement then! I agree that those threads ARE gossipy. I've just seen you mention gossip in one thread and it was the temple thread -- which struck me as odd.

I think gossip is a bit different than the "bully threads" which is what I like to call them. Yet, if you look at the rat fink thread you'll see it's not only a bully thread (targeting one particular poster on non-LDS related issues), but also a gossip thread!

I'm sort of sick of this board. I'm really sick of no one saying anything when poor conduct occurs. I did for a long time -- and quite frankly becoming the target and not having ANYONE defend me when my life was threatened -- then later having personal in real life issues exposed on the board made me question how all these wonderful people that were indoctrinated with "morals" really are. I'll stick with my ethics, I suppose.

I'm not perfect. I try! Damn, I try so hard. The LDS Church does a fairly miserable job with incorporating empathy and ethics in its members. I've been on so many other boards. Never seen the hatred and personal vendettas as seen on this one. The glee when someone steps outside the norms so that everyone can dogpile. I've never had anyone relish in my sobs. Ever, until this board. I don't know what to make of it? There are some good people here -- but the few that are rabid are outspoken and drown out the good too often.


Perhaps I was on one of my hiatuses from the board when you became the target. That is regretable and unfortunate--particularly when your intent was to improve the way people treat each other here. Trust me when I say that I, perhaps better than anyone else here, know what that is like. Please know, though, that I honor and celebrate such efforts, and that you aren't alone. Runtu and BishopRic have also been instrumental in helping to diminish the personal animus from all sides on this and other boards. You each are to be commended.

However, I am not sure it is fair or accurate to fault the LDS Church for how SOME of its members and former members treat each other. After all, the second great commandment of the Church is to love one another. Attitudes and behaviors are a function of individual choice, and as such, the responsibility for those attitudes and behaviors should be laid at the feet of individuals rather than the groups to which they belong--particularly if the foundational precepts of the group are at odds with certain attitudes and behaviors manifest by SOME of its members or former members. By looking at it this way, one can avoid inappropriate stereotyping, and not inadvertantly enable SOME people to avoid taking personal responsibility for their own actions.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

harmony wrote:
Moniker wrote:I see a great deal of emphasis on appearance in the LDS Church -- even down to what people wear. I know I visited this Baptist Church once (I've been to pretty much every denomination in my area -- just 'cause I'm not a Christian does not mean I don't go to Church:) and there were people in blue jeans. Not that blue jeans make you a sinner -- just the lack of concern over the outer shell and more an emphasis on the inner person.


Boy, if that isn't the truth! LDS are a very appearance-minded bunch, that's for sure.


How is this not gossiping about the LDS Church and its membership, let alone stereotyping?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

wenglund wrote:
harmony wrote:
Moniker wrote:I see a great deal of emphasis on appearance in the LDS Church -- even down to what people wear. I know I visited this Baptist Church once (I've been to pretty much every denomination in my area -- just 'cause I'm not a Christian does not mean I don't go to Church:) and there were people in blue jeans. Not that blue jeans make you a sinner -- just the lack of concern over the outer shell and more an emphasis on the inner person.


Boy, if that isn't the truth! LDS are a very appearance-minded bunch, that's for sure.


How is this not gossiping about the LDS Church and its membership, let alone stereotyping?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Because it's an observation.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

You can read about the most egregious recent example of Mormonism fostering "spying" on each other here. Ernest Wilkinson was president of BYU and actually set up a spy ring.

http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no37.htm

Lest anyone suggest that the Tanners fabricated this, it should be emphasized that Wilkinson admitted setting up a spy ring.

PROVO (AP)—Brigham Young University President Ernest L. Wilkinson acknowledged Tuesday that a student investigation team had existed on campus to check on so-called liberal professors. . . .

In his letter Dr. Wilkinson said:

Although there is misinformation in the charges, there was such a group, reports were made and students were under impression they were acting with the sanction of the administration.

He did not say who the students were reporting to, but added:

As president I must accept responsibility and I regret the misunderstanding and uneasiness which had been engendered.

Brigham Young University is owned and operated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormon Church. (Salt Lake Tribune, March 15, 1967)


I also seem to remember some quotes from early in church history that openly encouraged spying on and reporting on fellow LDS. I'll see if can hunt some up.

Oh, and of course there's the Strengthening the Members committee, that collects information about certain members and keeps it on file.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Jersey Girl wrote:
wenglund wrote:
harmony wrote:
Moniker wrote:I see a great deal of emphasis on appearance in the LDS Church -- even down to what people wear. I know I visited this Baptist Church once (I've been to pretty much every denomination in my area -- just 'cause I'm not a Christian does not mean I don't go to Church:) and there were people in blue jeans. Not that blue jeans make you a sinner -- just the lack of concern over the outer shell and more an emphasis on the inner person.


Boy, if that isn't the truth! LDS are a very appearance-minded bunch, that's for sure.


How is this not gossiping about the LDS Church and its membership, let alone stereotyping?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Because it's an observation.


It is also a value judgement.

However, I am still not sure how this doesn't qualify as "gossip" under Moniker's definition, or stereotyping. What is the point in talking amongst ourselves here (particularly since most here are former members), about the Church's supposed "emphasis on appearance"? What value is there in doing so other than perhaps artificially making ourselves feel better about ourselves?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

wenglund wrote:
harmony wrote:
Moniker wrote:I see a great deal of emphasis on appearance in the LDS Church -- even down to what people wear. I know I visited this Baptist Church once (I've been to pretty much every denomination in my area -- just 'cause I'm not a Christian does not mean I don't go to Church:) and there were people in blue jeans. Not that blue jeans make you a sinner -- just the lack of concern over the outer shell and more an emphasis on the inner person.


Boy, if that isn't the truth! LDS are a very appearance-minded bunch, that's for sure.


How is this not gossiping about the LDS Church and its membership, let alone stereotyping?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


White shirts and ties? Earrings holes? Tattoos? Boy, Wade. You haven't been paying attention for the last 30 years or so, have you? Listen to your priesthood leaders, Wade. They'll tell you exactly how to dress, what length of hair you can have, how many earrings you can wear, etc. If that isn't appearance-minded, I don't know what is.
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