BYU is a sign of failure as a church

[_harmony]

Were the intent behind establishing BYU to have been purely religious in nature--I.e. fulfilling the threefold mission of the Church, then what you suggest may make sense. However, given that the curriculum at BYU is, by design, overwhelmingly secular in nature, then what you suggest doesn't make sense. In other words, you are mistakingly, and ironically, attepting to confine BYU to a purely religious box.

Tithing is not supposed to be used for anything except the three-fold mission of the church. Therefore, no tithing money should be spent to support BYU.

Good grief, Wade. This is Mormons 101. You know this.

[_harmony]

I think you have PR and shining example confused. Anytime someone makes a positive comment about BYU or the Church because of the actions of one or a group, that is a "shining example." If that positive comment occurs on TV where a sportscaster talks about how young LDS men are so dedicated to their religion they interrupt their sports careers to go on missions, and how high the percentage of BYU's football team are RM's and it goes to 23 million homes, that is a "shining example." How long would it take for one kid at one secular school to reach 23 million people?

So why wouldn't those same athletes play for a secular school, thereby being a shining example to those 23 milloion people, plus? Secular schools hold scholarships all the time, charity. Did you think only BYU did that? If a guy wants to serve a mission, there's no reason to assume that his scholarship won't be there for him when he gets back.

And then, all the rest of those 100,000 students could be shining examples too! Not just the athletes! What a difference we could make in the world, if we'd just stop circling the wagons and start letting our lights shine in the world!

That is not a waste of tithing.

BYU is not only a waste; BYU is in direct opposition to the commandment to let our light shine.

There are about 500 universities in this country. Let's divide the 100,000 students enrolled at BYU schools now between them. That's 2000 bright shining LDS students at each school! What a difference that would make! What an influence we would have! WOW!

BYU is carrying out the commission of Matt 5:16. And what is your source for the Church being under condemnation? The Book of Harmony 5:1?

Our leaders are allowing BYU to bury our bright lights under a bushel of ethnocentric thinking. Disband the whole BYU system!

And Pres Benson is one who said the whole church was under condemnation, for not reading the Book of Mormon like we should. Heck, our leaders don't read the Bible like they should either. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[_LCD2YOU]

"Breed 'em Young University" does exactly what it is supposed to do:

Send young people on missions, get members to marry early and have lot's of children, provide the illusion that Mormon Archeology actually has merit (FARMS and FAIR) and provide a metally stiffling, "How dare you think that" group think menatlity for the bright ones to further surpress their identies and become good drones and breeding mares in the Morg.

As that, I don't care how you bring 'em, just "Bring 'em Young University" does very well.

[_Mister Scratch]

Were the intent behind establishing BYU to have been purely religious in nature--I.e. fulfilling the threefold mission of the Church, then what you suggest may make sense. However, given that the curriculum at BYU is, by design, overwhelmingly secular in nature, then what you suggest doesn't make sense. In other words, you are mistakingly, and ironically, attepting to confine BYU to a purely religious box.

It's very simple. BYU was established by the Church. I don't think anyone would deny that. So: given the fact that BYU was established by the Church, isn't it reasonable to ask whether or not BYU is contributing in some way to the threefold mission?

[_truth dancer]

Hi Harmony...

Well, OK, but, is the three fold mission of the church doctrine? Or the opinion of a few elderly gentlemen? ;-)

Actually I haven't heard this discussed in church in years and years... has anyone heard of it lately? Is it still the actual "mission of the church?"

~dancer~

[_charity]

So why wouldn't those same athletes play for a secular school, thereby being a shining example to those 23 milloion people, plus? Secular schools hold scholarships all the time, charity. Did you think only BYU did that? If a guy wants to serve a mission, there's no reason to assume that his scholarship won't be there for him when he gets back.

You don't understand the world of college athletics. There aren't any secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years. They don't have unlimited scholarships and there are very definite rules about awarding them. A kid who goes off on a mission comes back to any secular school as a walk on. A little out of shape compared to the guys who have been playing for 2 years, and not in a good competitive situation. BYU is willing to work with them.

And I do understand the college football situation. My son was on a football coaching staff for a number of years.

BYU is not only a waste; BYU is in direct opposition to the commandment to let our light shine.

There are about 500 universities in this country. Let's divide the 100,000 students enrolled at BYU schools now between them. That's 2000 bright shining LDS students at each school! What a difference that would make! What an influence we would have! WOW!

Harmony, your numbers are way off, not even close to correct.

First, combined enrollment of all the BYU campuses is 50,000. 35,000 full and partime at BYU, 13,500 at Rexburg and 2,500 at Hawaii.

And according to the following link there are 2,464 universities in the US.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908742.html

So, divide the 50,000 students among the 2,464 campuses, and you get a whopping total of 20 per campus. Not even enough to support a CES institute.

And Pres Benson is one who said the whole church was under condemnation, for not reading the Book of Mormon like we should.

Excuse me! For not reading the Book of Mormon! Not for sending kids to BYU! Get a grip, girl. That was not anywhere close to logical.

Heck, our leaders don't read the Bible like they should either. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I suspect we are having this discussion because you can't stand it that BYU beat Utah in football 2 years in a row. The tone of this post is definitately RED.

P.S. Perfecting the Saints means "educating" them, too. .


D&C 109: 7
7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith;

D&C 109: 14 14 And do thou grant, Holy Father, that all those who shall worship in this house may be taught words of wisdom out of the best books, and that they may seek learning even by study, and also by faith, as thou hast said;

D&C 88: 118 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.

[_moksha]

And they'd revamp the Institute program, so it wasn't insular but rather was an outreach program to nonmember students on college campuses.

That is quite an idea. Perhaps offering a class on yoga techniques to reduce test anxiety, and if the thought of such a class utilizing yoga would rile Elder Packer, perhaps a class on Steven Covey's Principles of Highly Effective People may lure non-mormon students in.

[_charity]

It's very simple. BYU was established by the Church. I don't think anyone would deny that. So: given the fact that BYU was established by the Church, isn't it reasonable to ask whether or not BYU is contributing in some way to the threefold mission?

I think that is a perfectly reasonable question. Obviously Harmony comes from the viewpoint that only one of the three is important, i.e. preaching the gospel, and the other two aren't.

You have to look at the otherall activities of the Church. While there might be a little benefit to the allocaiton of resources to the Family History Library and archives as non-members use them and the temples as a sort of "shining light" in terms of a visible presence, the major impact of that concentration is on redeeming the dead. Not much preaching or perfecting.

Likewise, the missionary program, while helping to perfect those direclty involved, doesn't do much for perfecting the Saints or redeeming the dead.

BYU does not have to have as its main goal to preach the gospel. Perfecting the Saints is, in my opinion, the big one. Higher education has to be counted as "perfecting." BYU's graduates do very well in their chosen occupations. As a nation, we consider it important enough to support education that we are all taxed to do it. I consider any part of my tithing that is used for BYU to be money well spent for perfecting the Saints.

[_Mister Scratch]

BYU does not have to have as its main goal to preach the gospel. Perfecting the Saints is, in my opinion, the big one. Higher education has to be counted as "perfecting." BYU's graduates do very well in their chosen occupations. As a nation, we consider it important enough to support education that we are all taxed to do it. I consider any part of my tithing that is used for BYU to be money well spent for perfecting the Saints.

Well, this is debatable, of course. Does BYU do a better job of "perfecting," education-wise, than other schools? Obviously, this is arguable. And, in any case, Harmony's point was that BYU students don't go out into the larger world, and instead stick within the rather stultified confines of the Lord's University. Moreover, I see no reason why one or more facets of the threefold mission should be emphasized at the exclusion of the others.

[_truth dancer]

You don't understand the world of college athletics. There aren't any secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years. They don't have unlimited scholarships and there are very definite rules about awarding them. A kid who goes off on a mission comes back to any secular school as a walk on. A little out of shape compared to the guys who have been playing for 2 years, and not in a good competitive situation. BYU is willing to work with them.

Umm.. have you checked every secular school Charity? I know first hand that this statement is incorrect. My husband played college football for a pack ten school before and after his mission. (And, an LDS athlete isn't guaranteed a place after his mission). To give a recent example, Ben Olsen came home from his mission, got a scholarship at UCLA and started at QB.



~dancer~