BYU is a sign of failure as a church

[_charity]

Hi Harmony...

Well, OK, but, is the three fold mission of the church doctrine? Or the opinion of a few elderly gentlemen? ;-)

Actually I haven't heard this discussed in church in years and years... has anyone heard of it lately? Is it still the actual "mission of the church?"

~dancer~

In our stake and my ward we talk about it fairly frequenlty. As late as Apr of 2006 Conference, in the Relief Society and Priesthood lesson manuals. Etc. Still a focus.

As far as I can tell, each of the missions is specifically a scriptural instruction. Putting them altogether in one place, I don't know.

[_charity]

You don't understand the world of college athletics. There aren't any secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years. They don't have unlimited scholarships and there are very definite rules about awarding them. A kid who goes off on a mission comes back to any secular school as a walk on. A little out of shape compared to the guys who have been playing for 2 years, and not in a good competitive situation. BYU is willing to work with them.

Umm.. have you checked every secular school Charity? I know first hand that this statement is incorrect. My husband played college football for a pack ten school before and after his mission. (And, an LDS athlete isn't guaranteed a place after his mission). To give a recent example, Ben Olsen came home from his mission, got a scholarship at UCLA and started at QB.



~dancer~

You mean a PAC-10 school? Was he walk-on, as I said? Did he have his scholarhip in hand when he got back from his mission with a guaranteed spot on the team?

And of course, there are standouts. Joe Montana or Herschel Walker could have gone off and been a beach bum for a a couple of years and come back. But I am talking about the good high school player who isn't a star.

[_The Nehor]

BYU helps to perfect the saints through education and spread the gospel as a symbol.

Letting your light shine is not limited to non-members. Considering you seem to think that a great deal of the Church is in apostasy I would think you would feel even more strongly about this.

[_truth dancer]

But I am talking about the good high school player who isn't a star.

Charity... tell me what high school player who isn't a star gets a four year scholarship to play football?

OK... here we go again. You made a few statements that were false. Can you admit you misspoke?

You don't understand the world of college athletics. There aren't any secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years. They don't have unlimited scholarships and there are very definite rules about awarding them. A kid who goes off on a mission comes back to any secular school as a walk on. A little out of shape compared to the guys who have been playing for 2 years, and not in a good competitive situation. BYU is willing to work with them.

There ARE secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years.

A kid who goes off on a mission and comes back to any secular school does not necessarily walk on.

At least some secular schools are willing to work with some students.


~dancer~

Just to be clear, I really don't care about this topic...I just tire of your assertions that are not true. You criticize others for not knowing something and speak as if something is true when it clearly is not. It gets old.

[_charity]

But I am talking about the good high school player who isn't a star.

Charity... tell me what high school player who isn't a star gets a four year scholarship to play football?

My nephew, for one. He was a good player. He wasn't a Joe Montana.

[
OK... here we go again. You made a few statements that were false. Can you admit you misspoke?

You don't understand the world of college athletics. There aren't any secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years. They don't have unlimited scholarships and there are very definite rules about awarding them. A kid who goes off on a mission comes back to any secular school as a walk on. A little out of shape compared to the guys who have been playing for 2 years, and not in a good competitive situation. BYU is willing to work with them.

There ARE secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years.

A kid who goes off on a mission and comes back to any secular school does not necessarily walk on.

At least some secular schools are willing to work with some students.

Can you admit that you made a mistake here?

I provided information from a credible source, a person who was on a football coaching staff. All you have said is nuh huh. I asked about your husband's experience at a PAC-10 school after his mission. You didn't answer. So past your undocumented statement, who would a person reading our posts think is giving the straight story?

[

Just to be clear, I really don't care about this topic...I just tire of your assertions that are not true. You criticize others for not knowing something and speak as if something is true when it clearly is not. It gets old.

I have yet to see anything that proves what I said was not generally the case with university athletics. Prove up, TD or back off.

[_wenglund]

Were the intent behind establishing BYU to have been purely religious in nature--I.e. fulfilling the threefold mission of the Church, then what you suggest may make sense. However, given that the curriculum at BYU is, by design, overwhelmingly secular in nature, then what you suggest doesn't make sense. In other words, you are mistakingly, and ironically, attepting to confine BYU to a purely religious box.

Tithing is not supposed to be used for anything except the three-fold mission of the church. Therefore, no tithing money should be spent to support BYU.

Good grief, Wade. This is Mormons 101. You know this.

With all due respect, I don't look to you to define where and how the tithing money is to be spent. I leave that to the Church leaders whose calling it is to make that decision (speaking of Mormons 101). I understand you wish to restrict the church to the tiny little box of your own making, and in your own mind you are welcome to do that. It is just that members and leaders think differently from you, and rationally so--this is reality 101.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_asbestosman]

I'm thinking most young people go to BYU to meet other young people. And since the LDS church is all about young people getting married and having a lot of children right away, perhaps BYU is actually quite successful?

I had a counselor in my BYU singles student ward tell us that the only reason BYU still exists is to get us married. I'm sure he was serious too because that ward wanted to get everyone in the ward married (unless you were a young man who hadn't yet served a mission).

[_moksha]

If prospective LDS students were to attend some college other than BYU, isn't there a danger of them receiving a Liberal Education?

---------

From my own personal experience: Students at the University of Utah benefit from not being totally dominated by Mormons. If BYU were to close their doors, this would provide harm to the educational experiences of the current University students not only in Utah, but throughout the Jell-O Belt. Much better to keep them sequestered before we have to start pumping their gas.
Just a thought...

[_truth dancer]

Charity...

You don't understand the world of college athletics. There aren't any secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years. They don't have unlimited scholarships and there are very definite rules about awarding them. A kid who goes off on a mission comes back to any secular school as a walk on. A little out of shape compared to the guys who have been playing for 2 years, and not in a good competitive situation. BYU is willing to work with them.

Rather than going with personal stories that can't be documented...lets make it easier.

How about you just document your original statements:

"there aren't any secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years."

"Any kid who goes off on a mission comes back to any secular school as a walk on."

Here is some documentation about Ben Olsen. He returned from his mission and UCLA "worked with him". ;-)

Upon returning from his mission, Olson made it known that he would transfer from BYU. Once again, he was the object of attention, heavily recruited by Cal, Arizona State, South Carolina and UCLA.

This time, he chose the Bruins – partly because he wanted to help turn around a program he followed as a kid, and partly because he wanted to have his family support system after spending two years in seclusion.

http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/200 ... vs-utah-0/

I have yet to see anything that proves what I said was not generally the case with university athletics.

This is different than your original statement. If you want to suggest that some schools do not work with some students, or some students must walk on after their mission. Fine.

Prove up, TD or back off.

Charity... YOU made the assertions. How about YOU document them? Once again you make claims then get bothered when people ask you to support them. (sigh)

~dancer~


Sorry to derail the thread a bit Harmony.

[_krose]

I think you have PR and shining example confused. Anytime someone makes a positive comment about BYU or the Church because of the actions of one or a group, that is a "shining example." If that positive comment occurs on TV where a sportscaster talks about how young LDS men are so dedicated to their religion they interrupt their sports careers to go on missions, and how high the percentage of BYU's football team are RM's and it goes to 23 million homes, that is a "shining example." How long would it take for one kid at one secular school to reach 23 million people?

That's definitely a double-edged sword. What kind of 'shining example' is it when some BYU football players are prosecuted for rape after liquoring up some girls at a party, or when one of them (an RM even) taunts the opposing fans after scoring a touchdown by flipping them off and shouting "f*** you!" a few times with a camera nearby? Ignoring that, what does even the best example really accomplish? Do you really think there are people who join the church because BYU has a successful athletic program or an awesome ballroom dance team? Do you think more highly of the Catholic church when Notre Dame wins the national championship? I imagine it inflates the sense of self worth of the members, but not much else.

You don't understand the world of college athletics. There aren't any secular schools who give out scholarships to a guy who is going to be gone for a couple of years. They don't have unlimited scholarships and there are very definite rules about awarding them. A kid who goes off on a mission comes back to any secular school as a walk on. A little out of shape compared to the guys who have been playing for 2 years, and not in a good competitive situation. BYU is willing to work with them.

You're dead wrong on this. Several schools do it (all the Utah schools, ASU and a few others), and a few of them even talk of having instituted a "missionary policy" to lure top LDS recruits, wherein they hold scholarship spots open. Of course there are also some coaches who tell kids they're not welcome if they can't commit to four straight years. Also, haven't you heard certain football coaches complain about BYU having an unfair advantage because their linemen are older, bigger and stronger?

And of course, there are standouts. Joe Montana or Herschel Walker could have gone off and been a beach bum for a a couple of years and come back.

Strange that you would include Montana in that statement. He definitely couldn't have taken time off and kept a scholarship. He was the seventh-string QB his freshman year and never got off the bench, and was third string at the start of his junior year before injuries gave him an opportunity. He wasn't drafted into the NFL until the third round. Few really knew how great he was going to be.