BYU is a sign of failure as a church

[_Bond...James Bond]

BYU is about Mormon youth staying Mormon throughout this period in their life, and finding and marrying Mormons. If they can get them graduated from college with a Mormon spouse, they stand a pretty good chance of keeping them in the church for the rest of their life. If they go out to secular universities, the likelihood of their finding good Mormon kids to marry and start procreating Mormon babies goes down, and the experience of a secular university outside of Utah isn't as likely, IMHO, to hold them bound to the church. This is a transitional period in peoples' lives, and the church wants to keep them good, faithful Mormons on the other side of this transition period.

This would be my opinion also.

[_harmony]

BYU is all about circling the wagons. We are not commanded to circle the wagons. We are commanded to let our light shine, and BYU plays a large part in circumventing that commandment.

No wonder the church is under condemnation.

BYU is about Mormon youth staying Mormon throughout this period in their life, and finding and marrying Mormons. If they can get them graduated from college with a Mormon spouse, they stand a pretty good chance of keeping them in the church for the rest of their life. If they go out to secular universities, the likelihood of their finding good Mormon kids to marry and start procreating Mormon babies goes down, and the experience of a secular university outside of Utah isn't as likely, IMHO, to hold them bound to the church. This is a transitional period in peoples' lives, and the church wants to keep them good, faithful Mormons on the other side of this transition period.

So millions of tithing dollars are spent to make sure a miniscule percentage of members' kids make it through some mythical transition period? And this supports the three fold mission of the church how? And this is efficient use of tithing dollars how?

If the youth of the church are so pathetic that they have no light to shine (as Jason and charity assume, that the youth have to be protected) if there is no BYU for them, then what does that say about the parenting and teaching that takes place for the first 18 years of their life? That it's an abject failure, and the only way to reclaim these, our best and brightest such as they are, is to provide a protected environment so they can find someone who is equally pathetic and marry them? And charge to the tithing account? Better to realize that that protected environment doesn't protect them.

[_charity]

BYU is all about circling the wagons. We are not commanded to circle the wagons. We are commanded to let our light shine, and BYU plays a large part in circumventing that commandment.

No wonder the church is under condemnation.

BYU is about Mormon youth staying Mormon throughout this period in their life, and finding and marrying Mormons. If they can get them graduated from college with a Mormon spouse, they stand a pretty good chance of keeping them in the church for the rest of their life. If they go out to secular universities, the likelihood of their finding good Mormon kids to marry and start procreating Mormon babies goes down, and the experience of a secular university outside of Utah isn't as likely, IMHO, to hold them bound to the church. This is a transitional period in peoples' lives, and the church wants to keep them good, faithful Mormons on the other side of this transition period.

So millions of tithing dollars are spent to make sure a miniscule percentage of members' kids make it through some mythical transition period? And this supports the three fold mission of the church how? And this is efficient use of tithing dollars how?

If the youth of the church are so pathetic that they have no light to shine (as Jason and charity assume, that the youth have to be protected) if there is no BYU for them, then what does that say about the parenting and teaching that takes place for the first 18 years of their life? That it's an abject failure, and the only way to reclaim these, our best and brightest such as they are, is to provide a protected environment so they can find someone who is equally pathetic and marry them? And charge to the tithing account? Better to realize that that protected environment doesn't protect them.

We have just taken your word for it that millions of tihting dollars are spent. Do you have any concrete information about how much money the Church provides to BYU? I haven't seen any figures. You are so quick to demand sources, can you please provide us with the figure?

What with tuition, endowments, annual fundraising, etc., it would be nice to know what you are all outraged about. So please supply us with the numbers, since that is what you keep talking about.

Is this vendaetta, of "legendary" proportions a sour grape thing? Your kids didn't go there and you are feeling aggrieved?

[_Inconceivable]

I beg to differ.

18-29 year old Mormons are not ready to be out in the real world (missions are not real world, by the way). Their light is not bright enough for the darkness.

Then we have failed as parents and as a church, because there is no reason for any LDS 18 year old to not know the gospel...BYU is all about circling the wagons. We are not commanded to circle the wagons. We are commanded to let our light shine, and BYU plays a large part in circumventing that commandment.

No wonder the church is under condemnation.

One reason is for our kids to be around enough other LDS to find a spouse they can take to the temple.

I later discovered I went to BYU because it was a status symbol for my family. My father was particularly proud to say his son was at BYU. It meant in our area that we either had money, highly gifted and intelligent children, or both - at least among Mormons. It was all about pride and envy.

In my opinion, BYU is the church's Rameumtum.

1) We are sooo blessed because of "our advantages of learning.."
2) We are more enlightened because BYU is God's only true University
3) We are being prepared to be God's gift to a fallen world - a Mormon cocoon, so to speak.
4) We are, of course, better than everyone else.
5) We are benefitiaries of tithing - we are not poor, we are chosen and entitled.
6) Our mates will come from the righteous gene pool of BYU

blech.

[Schreech]

If we can add another dimension here, I would argue that BYU is about strengthening Mormon Youth who come from the US and Canada mainly.
It is not a valid option for most Europeans. Europeans pay the same amount of tithing, but certainly don't get the same benefits of a Utahn!

I did apply to the post graduate program at BYU but didn't even get past the first hirdle and my grades were good. Though, when I got there to pick up my papers, and wandered around campus I can't say that I felt comfortable...I didn't...Too many Mormons...

My friend and I hopped and skipped it to the University of Utah and fell in love with the place. If schools have an 'aura', and I'm convinced they do. The U of U's was much more in keeping with one that pursued 'education' and love of learning in my opinion without the diversions.

Another friend who didn't have as high grades as myself, actually learned how to get in to BYU, so she went to some college in SLC, got her grades and then applied and got in no problem. When she came back, and wanted to go into teaching, I offered to go with her to get her GCSE Maths as I had a couple of gifted mathematicians in my class that year and wanted to recapp and see how the course had changed. I felt though, that it was unusual that BYU had admitted my friend to a degree course without any maths qualifications. Over here you 'have' to have maths and english to get on most degree courses.

Looking back now, I applied for all the wrong reasons, ie because I wanted to be around lots of LDS (or thought I did). I was too English and would have hated it, the culture was absolutely alien to me. For what I wanted to study there are far better Universities in England.

I have to say though, being the only Mormon in a university or college, as I was, in my undergraduate days, is quite a challenge, and also quite lonely really. I wouldn't have dated a non-mormon at the time, because my PB said I should seek out a worthy priesthood holder, and I believed it.

I got ribbed constantly for my beleifs even by the lecturers, though the chaplain did invite me to apply to one of the theological colleges down in the City, I guess because he felt my unique theological views and religious background would add to the diversity on the course. (Ha) I can remember one guy even wrote 'will you marry me' on the blackboard as I entered a lecture, to everyones delight. The lecturer was like...well hey that's a good choice!, but he had no idea that the only reason the guy had written it, is because I told him that if he wanted to get me to bed he would have to marry me first...(pretty funny).

There's some unique challenges there, and you have to be pretty strong to survive it. It was my lecturers who asked only that I critically examine my beliefs the way I would my course work, and actually it was some of my fellow history students who actually knew more about the Book of Abraham and problems with it than I did. I guess also, that that is when the first real...oh bugger...Is all this really true...came in to play. So perhaps the parents who send their kids to BYU have good reason to want their lecturers and friends to be card carrying Mormons...

Mary

[_harmony]

We have just taken your word for it that millions of tihting dollars are spent. Do you have any concrete information about how much money the Church provides to BYU? I haven't seen any figures. You are so quick to demand sources, can you please provide us with the figure?

Another reason to open the books, charity. Let's see exactly how much BYU costs us all.

We know that tuition for LDS is 200 a credit, and for non LDS is almost 400 a credit. Hmmm. So every credit a Mormon takes is subsidized at the rate of $200 per. That's a chunk of change, even for 40,000 students.

Is this vendaetta, of "legendary" proportions a sour grape thing? Your kids didn't go there and you are feeling aggreived?

My children were accepted at BYU and turned it down, charity. Why? Well, what has BYU given us?

1. The BYU attitude of arrogance and elitism.
2. A sense of entitlement unsurpassed in Mormondom.
3. An Honor Code that takes sneakiness and whispering campaigns to a whole new level.
4. A focus on appearances that brought us such gems of wisdom as the two earring hole proclamation and white glove inspections.
5. A complete waste of tithing dollars, taking away from more important, more worthy expenditures.

I love my kids too much to send them into such a place that would singlehandedly undo all the light they were able to show when they attended our state universities. My family didn't hide the light the gospel is in their lives. They followed the commandment.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Harmony....

No problem, TD. It's all part of the surreality of the BYU experience. ;-)

LOL!

I just wanted to see what would happen, were the unthinkable actually be discussed. You know what I'm talking about: disband the BYU conglomerate and send our shining youth to secular schools, like we're commanded to do. The leaders tried, back in the early 90's, when BYU was so overloaded with applications, and our leaders tried to get us to send our youth to state colleges and use the Institute system. Instead, now we have a further bloatedness surrounding the idea of BYU, with the expansion of Ricks to a 4 year BYU-Idaho complex. Stupid.

To be honest, I never really thought much about BYU until you enlightened me Harmony. ;-) Well, I thought about it having attended there myself, and have several family members who also attend/ed, but I never stopped to really contemplate it in any depth.

It really does seem wrong to use tithing funds to give some students (those who are either well connected or get good grades in HS), a nearly free education using funds from those who can't even afford to send their own children to college. I think of those who struggle to pay for electricity and food, who are paying for some rich and/or smart young people to go to college. It doesn't seem right.

Quit spending our tithing dollars to support an institution that has long since outgrown it's usefulness and applicableness to real life. Disband it and put the tithing dollars to work like they're supposed to be, on the three-fold mission of the church.

I'm guessing LDS leaders think BYU is a good investment to ensure the church will continue. (smile). Last I heard there were some serious issue regarding inactivity among young adults. (Anyone know if this is still a concern)? If I recall correctly, this age group had a large percentage of inactive and non-believing members. I wonder if the move to accept more students, and the change from Ricks to BYI is a result of the concern? If the church gets young people to one of the "Y's" I'm thinking the leaders are hopeful (rightly so perhaps), that more young people will stay in the church.

And no, charity. Perfecting the Saints doesn't include providing expensive higher education for a limited number of youth. Higher education is a frill we can ill afford, when we're so broke we require the members to clean the buildings and the temples. That's just poor fiscal management.

I have a really difficult time when I hear education associated with perfection. REALLY don't like it. It is CLEAR that having various degrees has NOTHING to do with kindness, compassion, charity, love (which according to scripture everything else is NOTHING).

And, what is up with people thinking sports has anything to do with holiness? It may be a little PR thing but does Jesus care even one little speck who wins a football game?

~dancer~

[_Jason Bourne]

So millions of tithing dollars are spent to make sure a miniscule percentage of members' kids make it through some mythical transition period? And this supports the three fold mission of the church how?

I already noted the various ways it meet the threefold mission. And it is interesting that now your argument is a minuscule amount of kids benefit. Thus as I noted the Church, which has dedicide not to buld more schools, is already really doing wht you want for most the population.

What is interesting is that fact that they are aware of the disparity. About 10 years ago I read an artilce in BYU Today that expressed teh concerns over the amount of tithing money that goes towards a student at a Church school vs. one in Institute. About $16,000 per year vs. $350

And this is efficient use of tithing dollars how?

I do not know if it is efficient or not. The ROI may be higher for BYU vs. non BYU students but I do no know nor do I know how one would compute it. But I am not sure efficiency is the main goal here.

If the youth of the church are so pathetic that they have no light to shine (as Jason and charity assume, that the youth have to be protected)

You are putting words in my mouth. I never said they were pathetic. Good for your yours apparently walk on water. But the fact is many yourth who do not go either on missions or to Church schools fall in to inactivity. Sucks for all us pathetic parents and all our pathetic children I guess. Maybe you should start a parenting class.

if there is no BYU for them, then what does that say about the parenting and teaching that takes place for the first 18 years of their life?

That we all suck at being parents. At least in your fallacious analysis. Sheesh Harm, you are talking about 18 year olds. Maybe yours are all prodigies but most aren't.

[_Yoda]

I attended BYU for two reasons:

1. To get an education.

2. To meet an LDS guy I could marry in the temple.

I achieved both of those goals. LOL

The problem I have with BYU is this. When I attended BYU in the 80's, the whole focus was to make BYU the "Harvard of the West". My thoughts were "Why?" It's a Church school. What do we or should we care what the "outside" world thinks? If Church members' tithing is going to pay for BYU, then ALL church members should be entitled to attend there if they want to.

Case in point. I had a 3.9 GPA when I was accepted to the Y. I have seen kids turned down for the Y even with this GPA, so if I applied today, there is no guarantee I would get in. My husband had a 2.7 GPA in High School. There is absolutely NO WAY he would have been accepted if he was applying to BYU now.

If part of our tithing money is being allocated to BYU, then everyone should be entitled to go there. If not, then they should be like any other private school, and obtain funds from other means.

[_Jason Bourne]

I later discovered I went to BYU because it was a status symbol for my family. My father was particularly proud to say his son was at BYU. It meant in our area that we either had money, highly gifted and intelligent children, or both - at least among Mormons. It was all about pride and envy.

So because your father had a warped views you think everyone does? I sent two kids to BYU so for and I can tell you I had none of the attitudes your father had. I was grateful they got in. Since they went to a high school where they were 1 of 2 or 3 other LDS kids in their classes I was happy for them to have a chance to be immersed in a stronger LDS culture. I was also thankful perhaps selfishly because it meant less money that I would have to pay for their college. BYU is a bargain. Oh and I knew my kids were pathetic and would go to hell if they went to a non LDS school so I was happy about that too. You see their parents were really sucky parent.

In my opinion, BYU is the church's Rameumtum.

You are entitled to it. However in this case I think you are all wet.

1) We are sooo blessed because of "our advantages of learning.."

I thought BYU was a good school but not great academically. There are better schools.

2) We are more enlightened because BYU is God's only true University

Some idiots may think that. I know many who don't but still think BYU is a good thing. Sorry your dad was not one of them.

3) We are being prepared to be God's gift to a fallen world - a Mormon cocoon, so to speak.

I guess I am just pathetic that I think 18-22 years is still a time for nurturing and preparing.

4) We are, of course, better than everyone else.

Of course this is your bitter exmo spin.

5) We are benefitiaries of tithing - we are not poor, we are chosen and entitled.

Never heart this from anyone.

6) Our mates will come from the righteous gene pool of BYU

Gee and active LDS that lives where there are few choices for their kids Old Testament find LDS spouses wants them to be exposed to that oppotunity somehow is a bad thing?

blech.

Yes. My exact feelings about your entire silly post.