BYU is a sign of failure as a church

[_truth dancer]

The "Lord's servants" are not infallible.

How would they possibly know if they were or were not being guided by Christ or inspired by the HG to make the right decisions regarding using tithing to educate some LDS youth?

I do think generally speaking, BYU does educate the more wealthy youth of the church... not exclusively but at least for those who live out of the area. At least my experience and observation suggests that most students at the Y are not from families in who can't afford to send their children to college.

Here in the East, the less wealthy cannot afford to send their children across the country to attend college even though the fee is minimal. It requires airfare, apartments, transportation etc. etc. It adds up. In every case I can think of off hand, the youth that attend church colleges from my area are from rather affluent families and could certainly pay much more for an education.

Again, I think the church is doing their best to keep young people in the church. Can't blame them.

~dancer~

[_harmony]

Code: Select all

I love my kids too much to send them into such a place that would singlehandedly undo all the light they were able to show when they attended our state universities. My family didn't hide the light the gospel is in their lives. They followed the commandment.

Well is is too damn bad we are not all as wonderous as you and your kids Harmony. Can I go upchuck now?

Permission to upchuck granted.

My kids aren't all that wondrous, Jason. None of them attended BYU, remember? ;-)

The point is, my kids are just ordinary LDS kids. No different from any other LDS kid raised in an active family with a testimony of the gospel. And none of them needed to go to BYU in order to be protected from the world; they attended colleges that have strong Institutes, none of them anywhere near Utah. The Institute program was sufficient to keep them active and involved in church activities. They'd all be very irritated if anyone insinuated that their testimonies weren't strong enough to withstand the vigors of college at a secular university.

That is what boggles my mind: that LDS parents are so afraid they've done such a lousy job of teaching their children the gospel that they have to send them off to a church school, financed by tithing money, in order to not have them go astray. Man alive, talk about not giving the kids any credit. Good gosh o'friday, Jason! You're a good parent; why would you assume your children are going to go astray if you don't send them into the mountains of Utah, obviously a plane ride and hundreds of miles from you? Don't you trust that you've taught them well? That they have a testimony? Is sending them to BYU for a few short months going to make up for the 18 years you've had them in your home, teaching them, showing them by your example what it means to be a good Latterday Saint?

Institute is a really good program. My kids had a devotional every Friday at lunchtime. The building was packed; everyone brought their own lunch and they'd sit and listen to a local speaker or have something brought in on the satellite. They had Institute classes every week to attend and Institute activities every weekend. They had church at the Institute every Sunday and FHE meetings every Monday. The building was in constant use; it was a gathering place on campus for members and nonmembers.

by the way, you talk about pride? I suggest you consider some of your posts here and work a bit on that beam in your own eye.

I am proud of my kids, Jason. Justifiably. We followed the commandment, and they were a shining light on their college campuses. If I'm condemned for that, well condemn away. I'll willingly take on whatever punishment is needed.

I like you Harm but on this one you are quite frankly, full of crap.

You only think that because you send your kids to BYU and you don't like it that BYU is my current target.

If your kids are anything like you, they'd be a huge asset to an Institute program at a secular university that would likely be cheaper, closer to home, and less of a culture shock for your kids (and BYU is definitely a culture shock to anyone outside of the Zion Curtain). I just think it's sad that you don't trust them to be a shining example to the world, and you think you have to sequester them in the mountains of Utah in order to keep them safe. Heckafire, Jason! You had them 18 years, you taught them well! Let them show you how well they learned. Please don't tell me you send them to BYU so they never learn to fly on their own, never learn to trust their own testimony and relationship with God. BYU is the training wheels of the gospel, paid for by someone else's tithing. If your kids are smart enough to get into BYU, they're smart enough to live the gospel where the world needs to see someone being that shining example of living the gospel.

[_charity]

To be real, there should be two different arguments going on--one about the benefit to the Church of BYU, and one about tithing. The two don't mix.

Or shouldn't mix?

I thought was the whole point of the thread was church schools and the three fold mission of the church.

I should have said that the question of how well BYU is meeting the three fold mission of the Church is a separate quesiton from the disposition of tithing funds. Disposition of tithing funds is not a member concern. It is completely up to the individuals who have stewardship over those funds.

[_charity]

We have just taken your word for it that millions of tihting dollars are spent. Do you have any concrete information about how much money the Church provides to BYU? I haven't seen any figures. You are so quick to demand sources, can you please provide us with the figure?

Another reason to open the books, charity. Let's see exactly how much BYU costs us all.

So, in the absence of information you can feel free to make up wht you want and try to pass it off?

[
My children were accepted at BYU and turned it down, charity. Why? Well, what has BYU given us?

1. The BYU attitude of arrogance and elitism.
2. A sense of entitlement unsurpassed in Mormondom.
3. An Honor Code that takes sneakiness and whispering campaigns to a whole new level.
4. A focus on appearances that brought us such gems of wisdom as the two earring hole proclamation and white glove inspections.
5. A complete waste of tithing dollars, taking away from more important, more worthy expenditures.

I love my kids too much to send them into such a place that would singlehandedly undo all the light they were able to show when they attended our state universities. My family didn't hide the light the gospel is in their lives. They followed the commandment.

And so they applied to go there for what reason? Just to be able to say, "I could have gone if I wanted but I turned my nose up at them? And what kind of good attitude is that?

[_wenglund]

I am wondering what value may be derived from this discussion--other than a certain party becoming a legend in her own mind? ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_harmony]

I am wondering what value may be derived from this discussion--other than a certain party becoming a legend in her own mind? ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Obviously this is one discussion you to which you have nothing to add, Wade. You don't have children.

[_Jason Bourne]

Here in the East, the less wealthy cannot afford to send their children across the country to attend college even though the fee is minimal. It requires airfare, apartments, transportation etc. etc. It adds up. In every case I can think of off hand, the youth that attend church colleges from my area are from rather affluent families and could certainly pay much more for an education.

I live in the east. BYU tuition, books, room and board is about $10,000-$12,000 per year. Air fare a few times a year is about another $1000.

A state school in my state has tuition of about $6000 a year and most the ones they would attend would have room and board as well. BYU is deal.

[_harmony]

We have just taken your word for it that millions of tihting dollars are spent. Do you have any concrete information about how much money the Church provides to BYU? I haven't seen any figures. You are so quick to demand sources, can you please provide us with the figure?

Another reason to open the books, charity. Let's see exactly how much BYU costs us all.

So, in the absence of information you can feel free to make up wht you want and try to pass it off?

Do the math, charity. $200 per credit for LDS. $400 per credit for nonLDS. NonLDS carry their entire cost, no tithing supplements for them. For LDS, tithing supplement's $200 per credit. Times 18 credits per quarter, times 40,000 students, times 3 quarters per year. That's a subsidy of $10,000 per student per year. That's $400 million per year. That doesn't count the scholarship students. They pay nothing. I don't know about you, charity, but $400 million is a lot of money that to me could be better spent elsewhere, actually fulfilling the three fold mission of the church.

And so they applied to go there for what reason? Just to be able to say, "I could have gone if I wanted but I turned my nose up at them? And what kind of good attitude is that?

Yup. Because in my ward, everyone sends their kids to BYU or BYU-Idaho. People were looking down on my kids because they chose to follow the commandment, so I spent the money to have them apply to BYU, and then they turned the acceptance down. No way could anyone look down on them again.

A funny thing happened the other day, when I was visiting with a friend of mine in the ward. She was lamenting that most of her children and grandchildren lived far away from her, while all of mine are in this state, even though none of them actually lives closer than an hour away. How did I end up having all my grandkids close by enough that I could go see them on a day trip? I told her it was because my kids all went to in-state colleges, not BYU. They chose mates who also lived in this state. She sent her kids to BYU and BYU-I. They chose mates from all over the country, and they went to live where their mates were from. Her children are in Florida, AK, AZ, CA, and NV. Mine are here.

Another unseen unexpected perk of instate colleges. Poor her. Lucky me.

[_Jason Bourne]

My kids aren't all that wondrous, Jason. None of them attended BYU, remember? ;-)

You know what my point was.

The point is, my kids are just ordinary LDS kids. No different from any other LDS kid raised in an active family with a testimony of the gospel. And none of them needed to go to BYU in order to be protected from the world; they attended colleges that have strong Institutes, none of them anywhere near Utah. The Institute program was sufficient to keep them active and involved in church activities. They'd all be very irritated if anyone insinuated that their testimonies weren't strong enough to withstand the vigors of college at a secular university.

Like I said the institute program where I live is barely breathing. And FYI, the only requirement I even put on my kids is that the attend a school that had an institute program of at least a few hundred kids. I wanted them to have access to that for their social life.

That is what boggles my mind: that LDS parents are so afraid they've done such a lousy job of teaching their children the gospel that they have to send them off to a church school, financed by tithing money, in order to not have them go astray. Man alive, talk about not giving the kids any credit. Good gosh o'friday, Jason! You're a good parent; why would you assume your children are going to go astray if you don't send them into the mountains of Utah, obviously a plane ride and hundreds of miles from you? Don't you trust that you've taught them well? That they have a testimony? Is sending them to BYU for a few short months going to make up for the 18 years you've had them in your home, teaching them, showing them by your example what it means to be a good Latterday Saint?

I thought I trusted them fine. Two wanted to go to BYU, one was iffy. Oh and by the way, BYU did not keep two active at all. My son go the boot from BYUI after being there two weeks. He got caught smoking pot. So for my boy, I regret the pressure I did put on him to go to BYUI. He joined the Marines shortly thereafter. My other daughter went on a study abroad with BYU, met an inactive LDS boy in Brazil, quit school, moved to Brazil, moved in with the dude and recently after a year and a half of shaking up got married. My oldest loved BYU and met her hubby there. My youngest still has 6 year til college. So did I trust my kids? Maybe not enough. Did two of them follow the path I had hoped they would. Nope. Not at BYU either.

Institute is a really good program. My kids had a devotional every Friday at lunchtime. The building was packed; everyone brought their own lunch and they'd sit and listen to a local speaker or have something brought in on the satellite. They had Institute classes every week to attend and Institute activities every weekend. They had church at the Institute every Sunday and FHE meetings every Monday. The building was in constant use; it was a gathering place on campus for members and nonmembers.

Yes some places it is. Not where I live.

by the way, you talk about pride? I suggest you consider some of your posts here and work a bit on that beam in your own eye.

I am proud of my kids, Jason. Justifiably. We followed the commandment, and they were a shining light on their college campuses. If I'm condemned for that, well condemn away. I'll willingly take on whatever punishment is needed.

I was simply responding to the tone of your posts.

I like you Harm but on this one you are quite frankly, full of crap.

You only think that because you send your kids to BYU and you don't like it that BYU is my current target.

No I really think BYU is a good deal but I would favor increasing the tuition.

If your kids are anything like you, they'd be a huge asset to an Institute program at a secular university that would likely be cheaper, closer to home, and less of a culture shock for your kids (and BYU is definitely a culture shock to anyone outside of the Zion Curtain). I just think it's sad that you don't trust them to be a shining example to the world, and you think you have to sequester them in the mountains of Utah in order to keep them safe. Heckafire, Jason! You had them 18 years, you taught them well! Let them show you how well they learned. Please don't tell me you send them to BYU so they never learn to fly on their own, never learn to trust their own testimony and relationship with God. BYU is the training wheels of the gospel, paid for by someone else's tithing. If your kids are smart enough to get into BYU, they're smart enough to live the gospel where the world needs to see someone being that shining example of living the gospel

Well thanks for the compliment.

[_wenglund]

I am wondering what value may be derived from this discussion--other than a certain party becoming a legend in her own mind? ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Obviously this is one discussion you to which you have nothing to add, Wade. You don't have children.

Apparently you get value out of snarling about BYU--as though that will somehow benefits your children. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-