BYU is a sign of failure as a church

[_the road to hana]

Do the math, charity. $200 per credit for LDS. $400 per credit for nonLDS. NonLDS carry their entire cost, no tithing supplements for them. For LDS, tithing supplement's $200 per credit. Times 18 credits per quarter, times 40,000 students, times 3 quarters per year. That's a subsidy of $10,000 per student per year. That's $400 million per year. That doesn't count the scholarship students. They pay nothing. I don't know about you, charity, but $400 million is a lot of money that to me could be better spent elsewhere, actually fulfilling the three fold mission of the church.

You didn't take into account the conitnuing endowment funds, the annual fund raising, the very large gifts by different people. So you are still guessing.

There was actually an article on this some years back in BYU Magazine, which interviewed administrators at BYU regarding scholarships and how they are funded.

Here are some excerpts from that article (quoting administrative officials at BYU):

Everyone who is admitted (to BYU) receives, in effect, a tithing scholarship. The costs of an education at BYU are heavily subsidized by funds from the Church. In addition we are able to offer about a third of our students another scholarship: either half- or full-tuition. But those awards are only a small increment compared to the large scholarship that everyone gets in coming to the university.

For all students some of the goals Sue mentioned would apply. The Church is making an investment in every student with the hope that BYU will provide an education that leads not only to students' own personal growth, but to their ability to contribute to society and to the kingdom.

and

Scholarships are funded by tithes and offerings. We consider this money sacred, and with it comes a responsibility--the responsibility for students to leave BYU and use their education to bless others.

http://magazine.BYU.edu/?act=view&a=305

If I'm not mistaken, the good Doctor Peterson regularly reminds folks that tithing contributions into Brigham Young University are substantial, and that tuitions are heavily subsidized by the same.

[_Jason Bourne]

That's my point, Jason. The Institute program where you live wouldn't be barely breathing, if BYU didn't exist. If BYU didn't exist, your Institute program would be strong and vital, if kids from families like yours didn't have the tithing-subsidized option of BYU.

The number of kids from my area that go to BYU would not add all that many more. Maybe 50 or so. Membership is real sparse here.

Would you send your kids to BYU, if you had to foot the entire bill? If there was no subsidy for members?

Yes if they wanted to go there.

I thought I trusted them fine. Two wanted to go to BYU, one was iffy. Oh and by the way, BYU did not keep two active at all.

Then not only was it a sad waste of tithing money, but it didn't live up its reputation.

Even BYU students have free will.

My son go the boot from BYUI after being there two weeks. He got caught smoking pot. So for my boy, I regret the pressure I did put on him to go to BYUI. He joined the Marines shortly thereafter.

Hindsight is always better than foresight. Parents don't have a crystal ball, and BYU isn't a magical place guarenteed to turn a wayward kid around.

No doubt.

My other daughter went on a study abroad with BYU, met an inactive LDS boy in Brazil, quit school, moved to Brazil, moved in with the dude and recently after a year and a half of shaking up got married.

All that tithing gone, and nothing to show for it.

Perhaps. That seems pretty crass though.

My oldest loved BYU and met her hubby there.

At least she has a husband to show for the expense of tithing.

Oh come on. She has much more to show for it. She is well grounded, for her major of linguistics she has a top notch masters degree.

[_harmony]

The number of kids from my area that go to BYU would not add all that many more. Maybe 50 or so. Membership is real sparse here.

Well, there were about 100 members in my kids' Institute. And they had a blast. Everyone on campus knew that if you didn't want to drink at the frat parties, you went to the Institute. There was always something fun going on. They had pool tables, dances, activities (ever played Trade the Toothpick?), camping trips (where my 2nd son met his wife to be), floor hockey, softball, basketball teams in the rec league. They had lots of nonmembers who regularly showed up for the fun stuff. And that was okay. Their director was a great guy who loved kids that age.

All for $350 per student. Hmmm. Sounds like a bargain for the tithing dollar.

[_the road to hana]

You didn't take into account the conitnuing endowment funds, the annual fund raising, the very large gifts by different people. Soyou are still guessing.

Turns out it was a good guess, charity. Elder Packer said the same thing: over $400 million in tithing at BYU. Please don't let the fact that my calculations agreed with his deter you. Go ahead and tell him he's wrong too.

And from an article in the Deseret News in 2003:

In 1914, the school's debts reached a monumental $185,000. A gift of $20,000 from Jesse Knight and a loan from a church-held company helped, but by 1918 the university still owed $113,500, according to "A School of Destiny," an official BYU history edited by Wilkinson.

Finally, the church stepped in and, in exchange for the school's real estate, assumed the obligations. The school's financial independence was surrendered but the deal was critical to the future. BYU is subsidized by church tithing funds. According to Bergera and Priddis, university expenditures reached $500 million in the mid-1980s, and church funds paid for one-third of those costs.

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510051870,00.html

One-third of $500 million in the mid-1980s could easily be over $400 million in today's dollars.

[_charity]

I live in the east. BYU tuition, books, room and board is about $10,000-$12,000 per year. Air fare a few times a year is about another $1000.

A state school in my state has tuition of about $6000 a year and most the ones they would attend would have room and board as well. BYU is deal.

I'm not going to quibble with you on this but... (smile)

Around here, most kids who are from average middle class families go to a community college for a few years while living at home and sharing the family car, home, and other luxuries of life, like computers. They work, and contribute as they can. They may transfer to any one of several state colleges nearby after a couple of years. They spend nowhere near the fifty thousand dollars required for other more affluent youth in the area to attend BYU/BYU Idaho/BYU Hawaii.

Maybe this area is unique...

~dancer~

Your $50,000 figure is so outrageous it shoots down any hope you have to be taken seriously on this issu.e

Undergraduate tuition is $3,840, boared and room approximately $6,460, books and supplies, $1,170 and then personal expenses of $2,064 and transportation $1,824. If my math is correct that is under $20,000. (These are BYU figures, and on personal expenses quite generous.

I have a grandaughter at BYU right now. She worked her head off taking Advanced Placement classes and getting good grades in high school. She stayed home from parties to prepare assignments and study. She got a tuition scholarship to BYU and saved almsot every penny she ever earned so she could afford board and room. Last summer she worked two jobs.

So don't give me this pampered darling rationalization. And please, get your figures straight.

[_harmony]

I live in the east. BYU tuition, books, room and board is about $10,000-$12,000 per year. Air fare a few times a year is about another $1000.

A state school in my state has tuition of about $6000 a year and most the ones they would attend would have room and board as well. BYU is deal.

I'm not going to quibble with you on this but... (smile)

Around here, most kids who are from average middle class families go to a community college for a few years while living at home and sharing the family car, home, and other luxuries of life, like computers. They work, and contribute as they can. They may transfer to any one of several state colleges nearby after a couple of years. They spend nowhere near the fifty thousand dollars required for other more affluent youth in the area to attend BYU/BYU Idaho/BYU Hawaii.

Maybe this area is unique...

~dancer~

Your $50,000 figure is so outrageous it shoots down any hope you have to be taken seriously on this issu.e

Undergraduate tuition is $3,840, boared and room approximately $6,460, books and supplies, $1,170 and then personal expenses of $2,064 and transportation $1,824. If my math is correct that is under $20,000. (These are BYU figures, and on personal expenses quite generous.

{snip unrelated personal information}

So don't give me this pampered darling rationalization. And please, get your figures straight.

You forget where TD lives, charity. She can't drive her child to Utah like you can. If her child wanted to attend BYU-H, that's an even bigger expense. Those flights aren't cheap. And Rexburg isn't exactly easy to get to on a plane. Her travel expenses are going to dwarf yours. Maybe not to the tune of $50K, but she's going to pay much more for her child to attend BYU than you will.

And both of your children would be subsidized by tithing. To the tune of $400 million plus. At least 10 times what it takes to support the Institute program.

[_the road to hana]

I live in the east. BYU tuition, books, room and board is about $10,000-$12,000 per year. Air fare a few times a year is about another $1000.

A state school in my state has tuition of about $6000 a year and most the ones they would attend would have room and board as well. BYU is deal.

I'm not going to quibble with you on this but... (smile)

Around here, most kids who are from average middle class families go to a community college for a few years while living at home and sharing the family car, home, and other luxuries of life, like computers. They work, and contribute as they can. They may transfer to any one of several state colleges nearby after a couple of years. They spend nowhere near the fifty thousand dollars required for other more affluent youth in the area to attend BYU/BYU Idaho/BYU Hawaii.

Maybe this area is unique...

~dancer~

Your $50,000 figure is so outrageous it shoots down any hope you have to be taken seriously on this issu.e

Undergraduate tuition is $3,840, boared and room approximately $6,460, books and supplies, $1,170 and then personal expenses of $2,064 and transportation $1,824. If my math is correct that is under $20,000. (These are BYU figures, and on personal expenses quite generous.

{snip unrelated personal information}

So don't give me this pampered darling rationalization. And please, get your figures straight.

You forget where TD lives, charity. She can't drive her child to Utah like you can. If her child wanted to attend BYU-H, that's an even bigger expense. Those flights aren't cheap. And Rexburg isn't exactly easy to get to on a plane. Her travel expenses are going to dwarf yours. Maybe not to the tune of $50K, but she's going to pay much more for her child to attend BYU than you will.

And both of your children would be subsidized by tithing. To the tune of $400 million plus. At least 10 times what it takes to support the Institute program.

I'm not completely sure what all this dispute is regarding what BYU costs these days, but I can attest that when I attended, many of us who did so did because it was the least expensive school we could attend, and was nearby.

I was offered full scholarships to several universities, but chose BYU because it was the closest to home and would cost me the least in housing. (With other schools, even though I had a full tuition scholarship, my family would have found it prohibitive to come up with housing and living expenses.)

In addition to having a full scholarship at BYU, which I fully acknowledge was tithing subsidized, I worked either full- or part-time during my entire time there to pay for other expenses.

The cost to my parents for the entire four years of my undergraduate education was less than $1000 out of pocket.

And yes, in spite of the fact that I left the church many years ago, I continue to contribute to BYU as my alma mater so that other kids can have the same opportunity I did.

[_truth dancer]

Charity...

Your $50,000 figure is so outrageous it shoots down any hope you have to be taken seriously on this issu.e

I used this figure because Jason, a pretty smart fellow and pretty good with numbers estimated that it would cost between 10-12 thousand dollars a year for someone on the East coast to attend BYU... add a few thousand for those attending BYU Hawaii or those who might need an extra semester or two. (And Jason has sent three children there... he just might know).

If you are going to be nasty... take it up with Jason.

And Charity... reread your post. Ask yourself how YOU may contribute to the nastiness directed your way.

~dancer~

Edit...I just realized C misunderstood the conversation between Jason and me. Jason's figures were for ONE YEAR... So actually, Jason's figures were much less than reality. Fifteen thousand dollars a year over four years adds up to SIXTY thousand dollar for an education at BYU... not including the additional expenses of traveling across the country.

[_Jason Bourne]

Charity...

Your $50,000 figure is so outrageous it shoots down any hope you have to be taken seriously on this issu.e

I used this figure because Jason, a pretty smart fellow and pretty good with numbers estimated that it would cost between 10-12 thousand dollars a year for someone on the East coast to attend BYU... add a few thousand for those attending BYU Hawaii or those who might need an extra semester or two. (And Jason has sent three children there... he just might know).

If you are going to be nasty... take it up with Jason.

And Charity... reread your post. Ask yourself how YOU may contribute to the nastiness directed your way.

~dancer~

Edit...I just realized C misunderstood the conversation between Jason and me. Jason's figures were for ONE YEAR... So actually, Jason's figures were much less than reality. Fifteen thousand dollars a year over four years adds up to SIXTY thousand dollar for an education at BYU... not including the additional expenses of traveling across the country.

My figures were what it cost me as recent as two years ago so they were very real.

[_truth dancer]

Sorry Jason,

I didn't mean that to come across as it did. I should have said... "not as much as BYU estimated".

I apologize! :-)

The point being... fifty or sixty thousand dollars is a lot of money for many average, middle class families in my part of the country. In my area, it is the more affluent families that can send their youth to a church college across the country. These same families could easily afford an expensive private college here in town.



~dancer~