BYU is a sign of failure as a church

[_harmony]

I would have no beef with BYU at all, if it wasn't supported by tithing dollars. Were that the case, I'd just feel sorry for those parents who felt they'd done such a lousy job of parenting that they had to shelter their children so much. But $400 million per year is a sizable chunk of change. Especially for being disobedient to the commandment in Matt 5:16.

[_truth dancer]

I'd just feel sorry for those parents who felt they'd done such a lousy job of parenting that they had to shelter their children so much.

Do parents have that much say in where their children go to school?

The young people I know who go to BYU usually really want to go there. Especially those who are strong in the church and are from areas where there are few, if any other LDS peers. Maybe the parents would rather them stay near home?

Just saying... ;-)

~dancer~

[_harmony]

I'd just feel sorry for those parents who felt they'd done such a lousy job of parenting that they had to shelter their children so much.

Do parents have that much say in where their children go to school?

The young people I know who go to BYU usually really want to go there. Especially those who are strong in the church and are from areas where there are few, if any other LDS peers. Maybe the parents would rather them stay near home?

Just saying... ;-)

~dancer~

Going to BYU is a lot like going on a mission. In some families, it's expected. I know several families that told their kids they could go anywhere they wanted to go, but if they wanted Mom and Dad to foot the bill, they were going to BYU. No pressure, of course.

[_charity]

I would have no beef with BYU at all, if it wasn't supported by tithing dollars. Were that the case, I'd just feel sorry for those parents who felt they'd done such a lousy job of parenting that they had to shelter their children so much. But $400 million per year is a sizable chunk of change.

Sorry, harmony. I don't buy into your guilt trip.

So, in essence you think your friend who sent her kids to BYU and ended up with grandkids all over the country is a really bad parent and its all her own fault for not getting to live by her grandchildren, and you were a great parent and kept your kids close to home and are now enjoying the benefits of close grandmotherhood. I think that judgemental attitude really stinks. Your friend knows what you think of her and she still considers you a friend?

I guess when ex-mormons and anti's talk about how judgemental Mormons are. . . . oh well.

You still have a wrong turn in your thinking. IT ISN'T YOUR PLACE TO EVALUIATE WHERE THE TITHING FUNDS GO. You are not entitled to having a return on your tithing in terms of you pay in X dollars and X dollars come back in services to you.

[_charity]

I'd just feel sorry for those parents who felt they'd done such a lousy job of parenting that they had to shelter their children so much.

Do parents have that much say in where their children go to school?

The young people I know who go to BYU usually really want to go there. Especially those who are strong in the church and are from areas where there are few, if any other LDS peers. Maybe the parents would rather them stay near home?

Just saying... ;-)

~dancer~

Right on, TD. We had three daughters go to BYU and 1 to Ricks, before it was BYU-I. (Only one met her husband there.) And we would much rather have had them go to the local community college. My husband was on the faculty and they could have all had FREE TUITION where he taught.

I didn't blame them. I went to BYU and loved it! (I transferred as a junior from a small college close to home.) I loved the big university atmosphere. I loved the predominantly LDS community. (There were actually students in class on Monday, instead of in the dorms hung over.) I loved the weekly devotionals. When you live in Oregon, you see a general authority every few years. There was a General Authority speaker at least every week at the Y. While my husband grumbled about how much it cost for the kids to go to the Y, I was in their corner.

The kids worked to earn as much as they could, got scholarships, and we went into hoick up to our eyebrows. But it was worth it.

[_Runtu]

When we lived in Texas, one of my daughters was adamant that she was going to go to BYU. Now that we live in Provo, she says she has no intention of staying here for college. My 14 year old says he's going to Texas A&M.

I don't really care where my kids go to school. I liked BYU, but I worry that my daughters will be pushed to marry too early if they go to a church school. My two high-schoolers have dreams of getting an education and having a career, but I suspect that the culture will pressure them to marry and have kids, like we were pushed to do. I'll never get over those "candle-passing ceremonies" they had when I was a freshman, where first-semester freshmen girls, most barely 18, were already engaged. I want more for my daughters than that.

[_charity]

When we lived in Texas, one of my daughters was adamant that she was going to go to BYU. Now that we live in Provo, she says she has no intention of staying here for college. My 14 year old says he's going to Texas A&M.

I don't really care where my kids go to school. I liked BYU, but I worry that my daughters will be pushed to marry too early if they go to a church school. My two high-schoolers have dreams of getting an education and having a career, but I suspect that the culture will pressure them to marry and have kids, like we were pushed to do. I'll never get over those "candle-passing ceremonies" they had when I was a freshman, where first-semester freshmen girls, most barely 18, were already engaged. I want more for my daughters than that.

I have an idea your daughters have already been taught by you to be realistic and not look for the white knight to carry them off to the happily ever after castle. Your "culture" is more important in their outlook than the BYU "culture."

[_wenglund]

Apparently you get value out of snarling about BYU--as though that will somehow benefits your children. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You be sure to let us know when you have children, Wade. Until then, you really don't have a dog in this fight.

I recognize your inclination to be dismissive of opposing points of view, but ven if I had children or dogs, I would not view snarling anonymously at BYU on a relatively obscure discussion board (which has little or no potential for affecting positive change in the Chuch or at BYU) as a "fight" of any value or worth.

But, you are certainly welcome to see it differently, and perhaps imagining your actions here as the stuff from which legends are made, and that some good may come from your tilting this windmill. ;-)

With five pages of discussions already on the topic, I am sure it would not take a microscope to detect some semblance of progress and good being accomplished. No doubt the "whooossh" I hear is the rapid change of numerous minds attributable soley to your irresistable reasonaing and perspective on the matter.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

I recognize your inclination to be dismissive of opposing points of view, but ven if I had children or dogs, I would not view snarling anonymously at BYU on a relatively obscure discussion board (which has little or no potential for affecting positive change in the Chuch or at BYU) as a "fight" of any value or worth.

But, you are certainly welcome to see it differently, and perhaps imagining your actions here as the stuff from which legends are made, and that some good may come from your tilting this windmill. ;-)

With five pages of discussions already on the topic, I am sure it would not take a microscope to detect some semblance of progress and good being accomplished. No doubt the "whooossh" I hear is the rapid change of numerous minds attributable soley to your irresistable reasonaing and perspective on the matter.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't think that Harmony's point was to change Church policy. However, she certainly has a right to her opinion. This is a discussion board, Wade. There is nothing wrong with her bringing up the topic. She is a tithe payer. She feels that her tithing dollars are not being spent the way the Lord intended them to be spent. That is the issue.

And, frankly, I have concerns about this as well. And I WENT to BYU!

Of course, my thinking are on some different lines. I really don't see any problem with Church members' tithes going toward the school. But, if our tithing is paying a portion of BYU upkeep, then it should be at least an accessible school for all Church members who wish to attend. I think that the GPA and SAT score requirements should be the same as they are for any state school. I think the "Harvard of the West" thing has gone too far....and, let's face it, BYU is still no Harvard. ;)

[_the road to hana]

I really don't see any problem with Church members' tithes going toward the school. But, if our tithing is paying a portion of BYU upkeep, then it should be at least an accessible school for all Church members who wish to attend.

If you figure that approximately $400 million per year is going in tithing monies to BYU, assuming of claimed 12 million members worldwide there might be 4 million tithepaying members, that would average to $100 per active tithepaying member per year that eventually finds its way to funding BYU (I'm assuming that does not include BYU-Idaho or BYU-Hawaii). That just means that the LDS Church has decided to invest its tithing funds on behalf of the members in funding BYU, rather than relying on church members to be that generous privately (imagine if church leadership were to ask from the pulpit for each tithepaying member to contribute $100 a year to a church college fund).

It seems to me that the church originally planned for BYU to be self-sufficient, and that didn't work. In the long run, taking over their real estate holdings was probably a good business decision (from a purely corporate point of view). And I also imagine that between BYU, what used to be Ricks (now BYU-Idaho), and the Church Colleges in the South Pacific (Hawaii, Samoa, etc.) which has now become BYU-Hawaii, it was intended that a church college education should be available to all.

I think two things happened in recent decades that made this difficult. One, 4.0 GPAs became easier to get, for whatever reason, so the grade point averages of prospective applicants to BYU experienced a hike. Second, the population of potential students grew in a way that made that also prohibitive.

BYU's manner of funding by church support is not typical of religiously-affiliated private universities in the United States. Notre Dame, which is a Catholic university, is not funded by the Catholic Church, but by its own endowment which has grown from $150 million in the 1980s to approximately $6.5 billion in 2007. It's likely that LDS Church leadership would like a larger self-sustaining endowment for BYU, but in order to get that, they have to make BYU a more prestigious school, which requires raising entrance requirements, rather than lowering them.

I think that the GPA and SAT score requirements should be the same as they are for any state school.

Church leadership needs to determine what direction it wants BYU (and its affiliates) to go, and whether it wants affordable church-sponsored post-high school education for all, or wants to have prestige schools. If its primary goal is to educate as many young Latter-day Saints as possible in church-sponsored schools, then I would agree with you. But it seems to me in recent years they have encouraged LDS students to stay closer to home and attend Institute, rather than hang all of their hopes on BYU.