BYU is a sign of failure as a church

[_harmony]

Apparently you get value out of snarling about BYU--as though that will somehow benefits your children. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You be sure to let us know when you have children, Wade. Until then, you really don't have a dog in this fight.

I recognize your inclination to be dismissive of opposing points of view, but ven if I had children or dogs, I would not view snarling anonymously at BYU on a relatively obscure discussion board (which has little or no potential for affecting positive change in the Chuch or at BYU) as a "fight" of any value or worth.

But, you are certainly welcome to see it differently, and perhaps imagining your actions here as the stuff from which legends are made, and that some good may come from your tilting this windmill. ;-)

With five pages of discussions already on the topic, I am sure it would not take a microscope to detect some semblance of progress and good being accomplished. No doubt the "whooossh" I hear is the rapid change of numerous minds attributable soley to your irresistable reasonaing and perspective on the matter.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Did you really think anyone was going to change their attitude about BYU by reading this thread? Good grief, man! I've been tilting at this particular windmill for years. I see so little of merit to come out of BYU, but I see a whole lot of demerits: an arrogant elitist attitude far beyond what is deserved for a school of like educational opportunities (the famous BYU attitude), a sense of entitlement far beyond any other member of the same generation, a penchant for secrecy and tattling (thanks to the Honor Code), and a flagrant disregard for the rest of the world. Thank you, BYU. It is not a light shining to the world as we are commanded to be. On the contrary, it takes our young bright lights and turns them into arrogant tattletales. And I consider giving over $400 million per year of tithing funds a collosal waste of money. Let the parents pay the bills, instead of the widow's mite.

[_asbestosman]

Did you really think anyone was going to change their attitude about BYU by reading this thread? Good grief, man! I've been tilting at this particular windmill for years. I see so little of merit to come out of BYU, but I see a whole lot of demerits: an arrogant elitist attitude far beyond what is deserved for a school of like educational opportunities (the famous BYU attitude), a sense of entitlement far beyond any other member of the same generation, a penchant for secrecy and tattling (thanks to the Honor Code), and a flagrant disregard for the rest of the world. Thank you, BYU. It is not a light shining to the world as we are commanded to be. On the contrary, it takes our young bright lights and turns them into arrogant tattletales.

You know Harmony, many of us on this board went to BYU. Do you think it made us arrogant? I grant that I may be arrogant but if so, I was arrogant in high school--long before attending BYU. As far as tattling goes, I never really got into that and nowadays I simply stick to my own business. I honestly doubt that BYU is turning out a generation of monsters.

I dislike the direction BYU is headed. I think it's going too far trying to prevent cheating by not allowing students to have their tests back. I also dislike their policies for LDS students who join another religion--they are expelled. All that said, I think I got nearly as good an education at BYU as I would have at a state school (certainly not Harvard, but I'm not ivy league material anyhow). The only difference is that I really had to be self-motivated to read up on contrary opinions. To it's credit though, BYU does have controversial material in its library.

[_MishMagnet]

I went to BYU in the 80's and do regret it. I always lived in the midwest. There were 4 Mormons in my high school. Our ward covered probably 60 square miles. I couldn't wait to be amongst "my kind" at BYU. What ended up happening to me was the opposite of what I expected. I left in the middle of my senior year and it took me 6 more years to finally get my undergrad degree due to transfering and having to take so many courses over. None of my religion courses were accepted at my now-alma mater.

I do wonder if I had attended the state university and stayed in the Mormon microcosim I'd grown up in if I would have ended up leaving the church. I just don't know.

As for how it is now I have no idea. I have not set foot there since 92. Back in the Midwest probably 1 in 10 people here even know what BYU is when I mention it and those that do usually just know it from sports and don't realize it's a religious institution.

I always heard 50% of our tuition costs were subsidised by the church. I guess I don't really care. Here there are many Catholic colleges and Nazarine colleges and if their church pays for it oh well. I graduated a Catholic college and it was 10x as expensive as BYU.

[_wenglund]

I recognize your inclination to be dismissive of opposing points of view, but ven if I had children or dogs, I would not view snarling anonymously at BYU on a relatively obscure discussion board (which has little or no potential for affecting positive change in the Chuch or at BYU) as a "fight" of any value or worth.

But, you are certainly welcome to see it differently, and perhaps imagining your actions here as the stuff from which legends are made, and that some good may come from your tilting this windmill. ;-)

With five pages of discussions already on the topic, I am sure it would not take a microscope to detect some semblance of progress and good being accomplished. No doubt the "whooossh" I hear is the rapid change of numerous minds attributable soley to your irresistable reasonaing and perspective on the matter.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't think that Harmony's point was to change Church policy. However, she certainly has a right to her opinion. This is a discussion board, Wade. There is nothing wrong with her bringing up the topic. She is a tithe payer. She feels that her tithing dollars are not being spent the way the Lord intended them to be spent. That is the issue.

And, frankly, I have concerns about this as well. And I WENT to BYU!

Of course, my thinking are on some different lines. I really don't see any problem with Church members' tithes going toward the school. But, if our tithing is paying a portion of BYU upkeep, then it should be at least an accessible school for all Church members who wish to attend. I think that the GPA and SAT score requirements should be the same as they are for any state school. I think the "Harvard of the West" thing has gone too far....and, let's face it, BYU is still no Harvard. ;)

I appreciate you sharing that with me. However, my comments cannot in any reasonable way be interpreted as suggesting I wish to deny anyone there opinion. I am just questioning whether snarling about the issue here will do anyone any good.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

I am just questioning whether snarling about the issue here will do anyone any good.

I don't really think that Harmony is snarling (at least, anymore than you are...LOL).

As far as whether or not bringing up the topic will do any good.....What good does bringing up any topic on a message board do?

We're just here to discuss things that are on our minds.

;)

[_wenglund]

Did you really think anyone was going to change their attitude about BYU by reading this thread? Good grief, man! I've been tilting at this particular windmill for years.

Clearly, I was being facetious. Sorry you missed it.

But, you beg my question. What good has it done anyone for you to belly-ache about this over the years?

I see so little of merit to come out of BYU, but I see a whole lot of demerits: an arrogant elitist attitude far beyond what is deserved for a school of like educational opportunities (the famous BYU attitude), a sense of entitlement far beyond any other member of the same generation, a penchant for secrecy and tattling (thanks to the Honor Code), and a flagrant disregard for the rest of the world. Thank you, BYU. It is not a light shining to the world as we are commanded to be. On the contrary, it takes our young bright lights and turns them into arrogant tattletales. And I consider giving over $400 million per year of tithing funds a collosal waste of money. Let the parents pay the bills, instead of the widow's mite.

Okay, you have a vastly different opinion about BYU and the use of tithe money than the Church leaders and many of the tithe-paying members of the Church.

So?

What good does it do anyone for you to hiss and spit about this here? Where has your being a busy-body gotten you other than earning you the reputation of a crank in certain circles?

I am not asking these questions to be mean, but rather with the hope that you might consider devoting your energies to things that are practical and edifying. You have a keen mind and admirable passion, it just seems terribly sad to see you choosing to exercise those qualities in destructive and wasteful ways.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

I am just questioning whether snarling about the issue here will do anyone any good.

I don't really think that Harmony is snarling (at least, anymore than you are...LOL).

I think we are both snarling to some degree. She is snarling at the Church, BYU, and other participants on this thread (including me), and I am snarling at her.

To me, the problem isn't so much the snarling, but rather the worthless or even degrading purpose to which the snarling has been put to use--at least on her part.

As far as whether or not bringing up the topic will do any good.....What good does bringing up any topic on a message board do?

We're just here to discuss things that are on our minds. ;)

I think there are a number of topics that could be discussed (or even snarled about) that may have the potential of producing much good--topics that have to do with things that are within our power to affect at least some positive change (i.e. internally and within the small sphere of our external influence).

If so, then we have a choice. We can squander our time here in de-valuing and de-edifying discussions such as this, or we can devote our energies to constructive dialogue.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-