Chastity, Young Marrieds, and Pregnancy

[_Boaz & Lidia]

So why is it that having to get married and have a baby at a very young age will doom their futures, and result in a low-paying job, when if the same couple had reversed the order, and done nothing different except by marrying first and then getting pregnant, they would be celebrated by this same prophet?

GREAT POINT, beastie! I hadn't made the connection before, but you're absolutely right (as usual).

Was the Virgin birth a planned pregnancy?

Joseph at least had a trade.

??? Joseph was into wife-swapping?

At the point of Elohim's climax with Mary, did he scream "Oh ME! Oh ME!! Oh My ME!!!"?

[_Roger Morrison]

The point is that there is no reason the "bad" couple would HAVE to quit school and take a low paying job, if the "good" couple doesn't have to, either.

The only difference is the date of conception.

\

#1. The point is that they often will end up that way. You cannot really speak to this issue, beastie, since you do not share the LDS concept that # 2. loss of chastity is a serious and often tragic event. So what, in the liberal culture of today with the example of celebrity couples who give only a passing wave at moral behavior. So what, in the number of "engaged" couples who live together years without ever bothering to marry. You yourself, have said on this board that you are living with someone, on weekends, at least, without being married. So it isn't a big deal to you. # 3. Your attitude biases you on this issue. (Bold added by RM)

Hi Charity, respectfully Sis, your position on this subject is no less prejudiced than anyone elses # 3. It is even less based on fact, as you allude in # 1. OTOH, your assumption is more a matter of LDS type cultural conditioning that presupposes the evils of carnal, sensuous & devilish humans to be THE motivator of our species. IT IS NOT!

# 2. In the grand scope of things, "...loss of chastity..." is probably one of the least important "losses" a person experiences. That a false seditious interpretation of Mormon morality places it next to murder is a heinous absurdity deserving spiritual, intellectual revue. Do you care to engage in such a an objective discussion?

To begin, can you present "loses" that You might consider "tragic events" in one's life, or in the larger human society, that might Trump, or come close to trumping "loss of chastity"? Warm trgards, Roger

[Guest]

I think Runtu said this that a lot of times religion causes good people to do bad things. The obsession with chastity is so great in the church that young people, who would normally not lie, do infact lie when confronted with the question - "are you morally clean". I just wish once that you would hear that telling the truth is the most important thing. There are so many masks worn by active members of the church do to this adoring history that they think they need to present when interviewed by the Bishop. Like I said before: if the Church gives adoring history to it's members and all you here is perfection then the members are going to give adoring history back to the Church. In the end it seems that combined that it could be called the Church of the holy deception.

[_charity]

Articles of Faith 13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Every Primary child memorizes this. I don't know of any person who doesn't know that it is wrong to lie about their moral cleanliness.

[_Yoda]

The point is that there is no reason the "bad" couple would HAVE to quit school and take a low paying job, if the "good" couple doesn't have to, either.

The only difference is the date of conception.

\

The point is that they often will end up that way. You cannot really speak to this issue, beastie, since you do not share the LDS concept that loss of chastity is a serious and often tragic event. So what, in the liberal culture of today with the example of celebrity couples who give only a passing wave at moral behavior. So what, in the number of "engaged" couples who live together years without ever bothering to marry. You yourself, have said on this board that you are living with someone, on weekends, at least, without being married. So it isn't a big deal to you. Your attitude biases you on this issue.

Just as your attitude biases you on yours.

Beastie was a member of the Church for years...a convert, like yourself. She understands the gospel, and she understands how the LDS culture works.

Her point is valid. President Hinckley used a bad example. The fact that the couple was planning on getting married and making a go of it should be looked at as a positive. The young woman was keeping the baby, the couple was, obviously in love, they were still planning on getting married and moving forward with their lives. Who is to say that the young man is "relegated" to a low paying job for the rest of his life? Certainly, he could still go to school. A couple that I met at BYU faced this very same conflict. They have been married as long as I have (20 years). They had their baby, then later got married in the temple. He finished his degree, and now works for the Church Office Building in the IT department!

We got married in the temple first, still had children before we were through with our education. We finished our education about the same time this other couple finished theirs.

For both couples, it was a long road.

Did the other couple face challenges due to their "sin"? Yes. They dealt with their own angst, and had to work through Church disciplinary issues. Amazingly, they are still very active members.

I agree with others here that President Hinckley was showing his age a bit with the example. It would have probably been better to focus on the feelings of remorse from the actual sin then to say that the couple, the young man in particular, was "relegated" to a lower paying job.

[_Trinity]

I don't know of any person who doesn't know that it is wrong to lie about their moral cleanliness.

I do!

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.' Joseph Smith Jr.

[_harmony]

I don't know of any person who doesn't know that it is wrong to lie about their moral cleanliness.

I do!

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. God said, 'Thou shalt not kill'; at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.' Joseph Smith Jr.

There you go again, Trinity, bringing up those unhelpful truths!

[_truth dancer]

The point is that they often will end up that way. You cannot really speak to this issue, beastie, since you do not share the LDS concept that loss of chastity is a serious and often tragic event. So what, in the liberal culture of today with the example of celebrity couples who give only a passing wave at moral behavior. So what, in the number of "engaged" couples who live together years without ever bothering to marry. You yourself, have said on this board that you are living with someone, on weekends, at least, without being married. So it isn't a big deal to you. Your attitude biases you on this issue.

What does the belief that loss of chastity is a serious sin and a tragic event have to do with Beastie's point? NOTHING.

And what does someone's particular life choices have to do with what GBH stated?

NOTHING.

Whether a young couple in college gets married and has a child right away, or whether they get pregnant, then get married and have a child right away ... does not make much difference at all.

They will still most likely have some challenges as they begin their young family.

To suggest that a couple's life is over, that they "imploded" and their dreams turned to dust because they got pregnant prior to getting married, but for those young couples who get married then immediately start a family, life is grand (or that they will not have to face the exact same challenges) is nonsense.

~dancer~

[_karl61]

Articles of Faith 13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Every Primary child memorizes this. I don't know of any person who doesn't know that it is wrong to lie about their moral cleanliness.

Who wrote the thirteenth article of faith. I think I know but you tell me. Did the person who wrote that practice that?

[_charity]

Articles of Faith 13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Every Primary child memorizes this. I don't know of any person who doesn't know that it is wrong to lie about their moral cleanliness.

Who wrote the thirteenth article of faith. I think I know but you tell me. Did the person who wrote that practice that?

God inspired Joseph Smith to write that, as you very well knkow. And yes, he did. He did what God told him to do. But even if he didn't, that doesn't make any difference in whether or not it is true.