Helen Whitney and the Princeton panel presentation

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Charity and the idiots squirming at MADB over this don't seem to realize that they are proving the points made in this film.

Mormons do in fact prefer to obfuscate and not come clean, and charity is simply making excuses while insulting everyone's intelligence. She is acting as an apologist, and a lame one at that, as usual, and she doesn't seem to appreciate what is taking place here.

This woman hit everything on the head perfectly. She is explaining how Mormons are viewed from outsiders and the actions of charity and the apologists are not doing anything but enforcing those negative feelings. It doesn't matter what rationalizations charity can come up with because nothing changes the fact that this is still how non-LDS view the LDS. By telling them they are wrong to feel that way is no reassuring in the least. There are valid reasons why Mormons are treated with skepticism. The culture of transparency is an axiom that cannot be ignored today. And yes, you guys can cry "sacred" instead of "secret" until you are blue in the face, and it doesn't convince anyone except yourselves. Why? Because the only people convinced of this nonsense are other LDS who believe just about anything an apologist can come up with.

Nobody else is buying it.

Ask and you can get a straightforward answer on any question you have.


What planet are you living on? You can't even expect the "prophet" to give a straightforward honest answer on Larry King. She was right. When a camera is in his face he denounces the doctrine yet when he is writing for the Ensign, before and after, he embraces it.

Ask missionaries about polygamy and you'll "straightforwardly" be told nonsensical crap about how the early Mormons were compelled to practice it because most of the Church consisted of women because all the men were being killed. As about blacks in the priesthood and you're likely to be straighforwardly told, "Huh, what do you mean?"

It is a freakin joke how this Church has mutated to what it is today. It mutated the way it did out of apologetic necessity, rejecting all the unpleasantness of its past while maintaining that it was OK for the prophets to have been wrong on so many things they claimed to have received by "revelation." Juliann is on the other forum telling us that Mormonism is only whatever the "living" prophet says. Everything else in the past is trumped. That's great, except the living prophet doesn't receive revelation that means anything. Nothing new anyway. He doesn't make prophecies like prophets do. He doesn't tell us anything new worth knowing unless it is to distance ourselves from the Mormon roots that really made the Church what it is. In fact, the Church hasn't really presented any new truths since Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. Ever since then, the later prophets have been borrowing from them and when socially appropriate, denouncing their revelations as "line upon line" crap. Meaning, they weren't necessarily wrong, but they aren't entirely true either. It is an attempt to have it both ways.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

What we see is that you don't need to know everything all at once. If you know, from the Spirit, that the Church is God's own church, then you don't need any more. IF you know that, then you have committed yourself to whatever else there is.


This is down right scary.

The very reason we see such horror in the name of religion.


~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Henry Jacobs
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Post by _Henry Jacobs »

charity wrote:
What we see is that you don't need to know everything all at once. If you know, from the Spirit, that the Church is God's own church, then you don't need any more. IF you know that, then you have committed yourself to whatever else there is.



Thanks for the reply Charity. I'd ask, how does "we" presume to know what people need to know and when? That comes off as a bit arrogant, when even members who have done everything necessary to enter the temple still(in your words) don't need to know everything yet. They won't know everything until they are nearly finished with a set of ordinances that involves a life or death committment to the church. Is that the only moment when God feels they "need to know" what happens in the temple?

Or would the spirit perhaps tell people something else about the church if they knew everything before asking?

Thanks again.
Oh yes, books disturb people. . . Guy Montag.
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

truth dancer wrote:
What we see is that you don't need to know everything all at once. If you know, from the Spirit, that the Church is God's own church, then you don't need any more. IF you know that, then you have committed yourself to whatever else there is.


This is down right scary.

The very reason we see such horror in the name of religion.


~dancer~


Well, you're just being dramatic. The church wouldn't ask anyone to commit to doing anything evil or even unseemly. It's not like church members would be expected to give their teenaged daughters to a middle-aged man as a secret plural wife. Oh, wait. It's been done. Nor would they be expected to kill anyone. Oh, that's been done too.

Maybe it is scary after all.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

charity wrote:Ask and you can get a straightforward answer on any question you have.


Was God once a man?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Ask and you can get a straightforward answer on any question you have


Did Joseph Smith lie about his polygamy?

When did the distinction between doctrine and "official" doctrine enter the fray?

What should non-Momrons believe the President of the Church receives real revelation?

What revelations has Hinckley received? Hunter? Benson?

When a prophet claims to receive truths by divine revelation, does that make it doctrinally true?

Does it make it officially true? Can it be doctrinally true yet not necessarily officially true?

I look forward to your straightforward answers.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Dr. Shades wrote:
charity wrote:Ask and you can get a straightforward answer on any question you have.


Was God once a man?


Yes. But while we accept that, we don't teach about His mortal existence because we don't know anything about it.
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

charity wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:
charity wrote:Ask and you can get a straightforward answer on any question you have.


Was God once a man?


Yes. But while we accept that, we don't teach about His mortal existence because we don't know anything about it.


You do realize that you just contradicted the prophet, don't you? :) He said he didn't know that we teach it.
Runtu's Rincón

If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Runtu...

Well, you're just being dramatic. The church wouldn't ask anyone to commit to doing anything evil or even unseemly. It's not like church members would be expected to give their teenaged daughters to a middle-aged man as a secret plural wife. Oh, wait. It's been done. Nor would they be expected to kill anyone. Oh, that's been done too.

Maybe it is scary after all.


LOL!

Those folks who claim God talks to them are those who could and will do anything... we see it in Abraham's willingness to kill his son, guys flying airplanes into buildings, and parents giving their young daughters to marry already married thirty something men.

Have you read, "End of Faith?" It is a great book that speaks to this issue!

:-)

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Yes. But while we accept that, we don't teach about His mortal existence because we don't know anything about it.


There are others who will assert this is NOT official doctrine.

As I stated, it is pretty much all opinion (guesses).

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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