BYU Students Making a Difference

[_Ray A]

Yet, it's not me that forced men to be all dick and lil brain.

I'm seriously think of this for a sig. line.

[_Moniker]

Yet, it's not me that forced men to be all dick and lil brain.

I'm seriously think of this for a sig. line.

:)

[_asbestosman]

Similarly, if beautiful females are bothered that men react to their beautiful bodies, then it's the females' problem not ours right?

How so. How is it the females problem? Because she doesn't appreciate it?

Because she let's it bother her and places the blame on men for being shallow or having a one-track mind. I was trying to make a symmetric argument. But again, I tried to clarify that harassment is something the victim cannot take blame for. If it bothers you that I think girls with red/blond/black/blue hair are pretty then it's your problem if it bothers you. If I start wolf-whistling then it's my problem because that constitutes harassment.

I agree! I wear a bikini to the pool and get stares. I don't care. Yet, am I forcing that upon him? Is it my fault? Is it mine to bear? Or should I rather think -- men are attracted to women, they stare, and yet I am not at "fault" for their reactions. It's normal.

I wasn't trying to blame the woman. I would only blame a woman who dressed in a sexy manner and then is upset that people stare at her more often than usual. I mean, duh, what'd she expect? Now, I would not blame woman for suddenly getting wolf-whistles or comments. Yes, I would expect that to happen, but it's inexcusable because it is harassment.

Yet, is me being uncovered make me responsible for how men react to the female form? Why?

Nope, not part of my symmetry argument at all. I agree with you there. You are responsible to your reaction to their natural reaction of looking. There is also the other extreme--men who refuse to look at you because of they thoughts it brings in them. Are you responsible for that reaction of them not looking? No. Are responsible for letting it bother you and commenting on it? Yes. That is what I think symmetry here requires.

Well, I've had quite a bit of experience (as you know) with men that see me as a dehumanized sexual play toy. Was it my fault? That men are okay with looking at women and not caring about them past their sexual appeal? Why is that my problem? Do I force that upon them?

Again, that men do it isn't your problem. That it bothers you is the problem--although not necessarily a problem in any negative way. Perhaps issue would be a better word. Perhaps not.

Does it bother me? Yes. In that sense it can become problematic since it's painful.

Yep.

[_Moniker]

Similarly, if beautiful females are bothered that men react to their beautiful bodies, then it's the females' problem not ours right?

How so. How is it the females problem? Because she doesn't appreciate it?

Because she let's it bother her and places the blame on men for being shallow or having a one-track mind. I was trying to make a symmetric argument. But again, I tried to clarify that harassment is something the victim cannot take blame for. If it bothers you that I think girls with red/blond/black/blue hair are pretty then it's your problem if it bothers you. If I start wolf-whistling then it's my problem because that constitutes harassment.

I don't blame them for being shallow. Men look -- that's what they do. I understand that, and am NOT uncomfortable with the very human response to being attracted to the human form. I don't blame them at all! I get irritated when they blame ME for what THEY do.

I agree! I wear a bikini to the pool and get stares. I don't care. Yet, am I forcing that upon him? Is it my fault? Is it mine to bear? Or should I rather think -- men are attracted to women, they stare, and yet I am not at "fault" for their reactions. It's normal.

I wasn't trying to blame the woman. I would only blame a woman who dressed in a sexy manner and then is upset that people stare at her more often than usual. I mean, duh, what'd she expect? Now, I would not blame woman for suddenly getting wolf-whistles or comments. Yes, I would expect that to happen, but it's inexcusable because it is harassment.

Yep, I agree. If you are uncomfortable with it, cover up. Which I do sometimes. Actually I rarely go out of my home (except the pool) where I am not fairly modest. But like I mentioned before I get looks when I'm in bluejeans and t-shirts. Don mentioned that women wear certain clothing WANTING men to think things about them -- can he read their mind?

Or is it a Beavis and Butthead moment: "huh huh -- she looks hot she wants me to pork her"???

Yet, is me being uncovered make me responsible for how men react to the female form? Why?

Nope, not part of my symmetry argument at all. I agree with you there. You are responsible to your reaction to their natural reaction of looking. There is also the other extreme--men who refuse to look at you because of they thoughts it brings in them. Are you responsible for that reaction of them not looking? No. Are responsible for letting it bother you and commenting on it? Yes. That is what I think symmetry here requires.

Am I saying it bothers me? I didn't -- and if you think I did you are missing my point as well. If a man looks at me then says I want HIM to think something about me he is placing a motive upon me. Some men are turned on by flipflops apparently -- maybe they have a foot fetish (met one of them) and am I being a slinky, sexy, seductress when I wear sandals? Nope! Do I wear certain things intending for men to think one thing or another? Nope. Do I know men will look -- yes. Do I expect them to recognize that their reaction to me is their own? YES! I do NOT care if they react to me. I care when they blame ME FOR THEIR REACTION. That is what I'm commenting on.

Well, I've had quite a bit of experience (as you know) with men that see me as a dehumanized sexual play toy. Was it my fault? That men are okay with looking at women and not caring about them past their sexual appeal? Why is that my problem? Do I force that upon them?

Again, that men do it isn't your problem. That it bothers you is the problem--although not necessarily a problem in any negative way. Perhaps issue would be a better word. Perhaps not.

Does it bother me? Yes. In that sense it can become problematic since it's painful.

Yep.

Well, it was painful when I was in that situation -- that is not discussing the everyday aspect of it. I understand men for what they do -- I do not blame them for being attracted to women. I don't want to get into talking about the flip side of this where it's NOT the everyday... 'cause that's not what this discussion was about. The thing is painful when I am made responsible for them! I'm not! And Don's comments PERFECTLY illustrate what I'm talking about. Women WANT men to think certain things? We inject it in their minds? I am such a sensual seductress in my flip flops? There's a price? Nope -- only when they won't take their part of being a natural human being and shift the blame to me for their reactions.

That this comes up on this board so often and I have to drill home that I'm not responsible for woodies really is surprising to me. 'Cause uh -- I have plenty of experience in real life with people that have a healthy view of sexuality and how people react to one another. That it comes up OVER AND OVER on this board and a few men will always pop in saying women want men to think this or that really shows how they WERE indoctrinated with this sense that a woman DOES something to men. We don't. They react to us because nature intended it. I'm surprised this has to be gone over so much, and quite frankly, it's just like such a "No duh" moment it's startling to me.

If a man blames me for him being aroused he has some god damn issues. If he's aroused, and I didn't reach down his pants, then that's his deal -- not mine.

[_Ren]

Well, let's take the hypothetical possibility that a women does dress a certain way to 'get a reaction'.

I think it's possible. I think my caveat would be 'Even if they are, who says they want a reaction from ME?'.
Even if their choice of dress is meant to cause some kind of reaction, who would believe that they seriously want that reaction from every man they happen to be in the vicinity of? Or how about homosexual women - do they want a reaction from them too?

Wearing certain clothes - even if it COULD be seen as some kind of attempt for a reaction - must be in and of itself like a UDP broadcast message (Abs and other geeks should get what I mean ;) ) - with no way of knowing who the intended recipient(s) are, or what kind of response is expected - without further details.


So - in short - beyond an initial glance (that sometimes - seriously - happens before you even get a chance to think...), I wouldn't dream of thinking they were intending or 'after' a reaction from ME without something further to go on.


I think I'd only assume the clothing was meant to mean anything to me after they got angry, because I didn't mention how good they looked in that 'new dress'...! :)

[_Moniker]

Well, let's take the hypothetical possibility that a women does dress a certain way to 'get a reaction'.

I think it's possible. I think my caveat would be 'Even if they are, who says they want a reaction from ME?'.
Even if their choice of dress is meant to cause some kind of reaction, who would believe that they seriously want that reaction from every man they happen to be in the vicinity of? Or how about homosexual women - do they want a reaction from them too?

Wearing certain clothes - even if it COULD be seen as some kind of attempt for a reaction - must be in and of itself like a UDP broadcast message (Abs and other geeks should get what I mean ;) ) - with no way of knowing who the intended recipient(s) are, or what kind of response is expected - without further details.


So - in short - beyond an initial glance (that sometimes - seriously - happens before you even get a chance to think...), I wouldn't dream of thinking they were intending or 'after' a reaction from ME without something further to go on.


I think I'd only assume the clothing was meant to mean anything to me after they got angry, because I didn't mention how good they looked in that
new dress'...! :)

Even if it is an attempt to get a reaction is she to be faulted for the reaction? Are men just weak willed woodies? Is that all they are? If a man likes what he sees then HE likes what he sees. That's all there is to it. If a woman is dressed to kill just bless yourself, look to the heavens, thank the stars that the female form is so gorgeous and go about your day. It's pretty simple. Saying the woman is responsible for you is making yourself into a god damn wimp. I'm okay with men being wimpy as long as they don't say (or someone else says it) I force that upon them.

[Guest]

Saying the woman is responsible for you is making yourself into a god damn wimp.

Agreed.
If anybody has reacted inappropriately to you in the past Moniker, then they are at fault. And there are no excuses as far as I'm concerned.

If a woman is dressed to kill just bless yourself, look to the heavens, thank the stars that the female form is so gorgeous and go about your day.

...that's exactly what I would do.
Actually - I must confess that I haven't always done that. But I at least acknowledge it was wrong when I have assumed something... (Nothing 'big' - my reaction didn't involve anything like 'force' - just some 'verbal feedback'. But I have assumed in the past, in certain specific cases, that a reaction was 'expected', or 'sought after' that was not. I think the instances are pretty low though - I usually don't assume anything)

I'm okay with men being wimpy as long as they don't say (or someone else says it) I force that upon them.

I wouldn't say anything was forced at all - 'wimpy' man or not. My definition of 'force' is pretty strict.

Even if it is an attempt to get a reaction is she to be faulted for the reaction?

If she was actually - of her own free will and choice - 'after' a reaction and that exact reaction was given - and from the person(s) she wanted it from, then - well - she was at least 'involved'. Surely?

But if she got a reaction that she wasn't after, then no - I'd say not. Clearly not.

[_Bond...James Bond]

I don't blame them for being shallow. Men look -- that's what they do. I understand that, and am NOT uncomfortable with the very human response to being attracted to the human form. I don't blame them at all! I get irritated when they blame ME for what THEY do.

Yeah we men must unite and admit our faults. Come men...chant with me:

I have a penis.

It has a mind of it's own.

It likes attractive women.

I admit it's faults and must learn to control it.

I will now control it.


Ahhhhhmmmmmmmm::Ahhhmmmmmmmm:Ahhhmmmmmmm

[_Ren]

Yeah we men must unite and admit our faults. Come men...chant with me:

Tried it.
...didn't work...

[_Bond...James Bond]

Yeah we men must unite and admit our faults. Come men...chant with me:

Tried it.
...didn't work...

British men count as American women ;)

(Alright...was that offensive enough? You know I'm joking right? Renegade is totally masculine...he's like a combination of Rambo, the Terminator, and Hillary Clinton on 'roids.)