Helen Whitney and the Princeton panel presentation

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_amantha
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Post by _amantha »

dartagnan wrote:
Anyone who thinks above about a 4th grade level knows that straightforward doesn't mean one word.


Nor does it mean two paragraphs of apologetic fluff. A yes no question is a yes no question. Whatever "straightforward" answer you provide, one of these two words must be found therein somewhere. But you don't provide the straight truth. You can't. You have to revert to apologetic mode and obfuscate.

We know Joseph Smith lied. Historians know Joseph Smith lied.

He lied. It is a fact.

We can say it because it is truth. Are you afraid of the truth?

If not, then just say it.

You can't bring yourself to do it because your veneration of Smith is more important to you than the truth.

Just look at how you're acting here. So scared to state a basic truth.


Charity does not know how to be wrong. This is why she is still Mormon.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

I guess you didn't read my post. "When God had told Joseph not to tell anyone about the newly revealed doctrine, and he was backed into a corner between answering and obeying God, he chose to obey God. Which is considered a lie by those who don't understand the requirement to obey God first."


And what do those who understand the requirements to obey God first consider it when someone doesn't tell the truth, purposely is dishonest, and deliberately misleads others?

Does being honest and telling the truth have a different meaning for those who understand the requirements to obey God first, than those who do not understand the requirements to obey God first?

Honestly, this statement is a perfect example of not being straightforward with the truth.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_guy sajer
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Post by _guy sajer »

charity wrote:
dartagnan wrote:
Anyone who thinks above about a 4th grade level knows that straightforward doesn't mean one word.


Nor does it mean two paragraphs of apologetic fluff. A yes no question is a yes no question. Whatever "straightforward" answer you provide, one of these two words must be found therein somewhere. But you don't provide the straight truth. You can't. You have to revert to apologetic mode and obfuscate.

We know Joseph Smith lied. Historians know Joseph Smith lied.

He lied. It is a fact.

We can say it because it is truth. Are you afraid of the truth?

If not, then just say it.

You can't bring yourself to do it because your veneration of Smith is more important to you than the truth.

Just look at how you're acting here. So scared to state a basic truth.


I guess you didn't read my post. "When God had told Joseph not to tell anyone about the newly revealed doctrine, and he was backed into a corner between answering and obeying God, he chose to obey God. Which is considered a lie by those who don't understand the requirement to obey God first."

I have to go away, Kevin. Or else I will be temped to beat up on you for not even reading my post before you comment. I guess you had that all typed up to cut and paste in, not matter what I said.


This is the closest Charity will ever come to admitting that Joseph Smith lied.

She concedes, in fact, that he did lie, but it wasn't really a lie, because God told him to lie.

This is the same God who made lying one of the 10 most serious offenses in his moral cannon.

Now, let's sit back and wait for some apologist to lecture us on how the wording "thous shalt not bear false witness" means something different than actual lying about this like this. Maybe Makelelan will honor us with a visit and explain in how ancient traditions, lying was really ok and widely practiced, and how God used it for his means, and that "bearing false witness" had a different meaning that permitted God's chosen to lie as a means of achieving their rights of conquest.

After all, "thou shalt not kill" doesn't prohibit wanton murder of innocents, so it's no far stretch to imagine that "thou shalt not bear false witness" doesn't prohibit lying.

Mark Twain had it right about the immorality of God with regards to his obedience to his own laws, as you can read his quote in my signature line.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
_charity
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Post by _charity »

truth dancer wrote:
I guess you didn't read my post. "When God had told Joseph not to tell anyone about the newly revealed doctrine, and he was backed into a corner between answering and obeying God, he chose to obey God. Which is considered a lie by those who don't understand the requirement to obey God first."


And what do those who understand the requirements to obey God first consider it when someone doesn't tell the truth, purposely is dishonest, and deliberately misleads others?

Does being honest and telling the truth have a different meaning for those who understand the requirements to obey God first, than those who do not understand the requirements to obey God first?

Honestly, this statement is a perfect example of not being straightforward with the truth.

~dancer~


I am trying to be less wordy in my responses. Five words TD. Abrahama and Sarah before Pharoah.
_the road to hana
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Post by _the road to hana »

charity wrote:
truth dancer wrote:
I guess you didn't read my post. "When God had told Joseph not to tell anyone about the newly revealed doctrine, and he was backed into a corner between answering and obeying God, he chose to obey God. Which is considered a lie by those who don't understand the requirement to obey God first."


And what do those who understand the requirements to obey God first consider it when someone doesn't tell the truth, purposely is dishonest, and deliberately misleads others?

Does being honest and telling the truth have a different meaning for those who understand the requirements to obey God first, than those who do not understand the requirements to obey God first?

Honestly, this statement is a perfect example of not being straightforward with the truth.

~dancer~


I am trying to be less wordy in my responses. Five words TD. Abrahama and Sarah before Pharoah.


Charity, I think it's the word "lie" that troubles you.

Which of the following would you find more acceptable?

1) Joseph Smith occasionally concealed the truth, for whatever reason.

2) Joseph Smith occasionally withheld the truth, for whatever reason.

3) Joseph Smith occasionally misrepresented the truth, for whatever reason.

4) Joseph Smith occasionally unknowingly mispoke the truth.

5) Joseph Smith occasionally misled others, for whatever reason.

6) Joseph Smith occasionally deceived his spouse, for whatever reason.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
_CaliforniaKid
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Post by _CaliforniaKid »

Bond...James Bond wrote:by the way: nevermo who for some reason is quasi interested in the Weirdness: Double WEIRD


Suddenly I understand why I'm single.
_Some Schmo
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Post by _Some Schmo »

Poor Joseph, having to deal with a boss like god.

First god says, thou shalt not bear false witness. Then he says you must obey him above all else (which, one would think, would include the instruction about not bearing false witness). Then god tells him to lie (perhaps to test his obedience?) Joe's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Personally, I'd be looking at god and saying, "Make up your freaking mind, ya flake!" So much for god lightning up after the New Testament…
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

I am trying to be less wordy in my responses. Five words TD. Abrahama and Sarah before Pharoah.


Ohhh so yes Joseph did indeed lie.

Why not just be straightforward about it?

He lied. (Only two words). ;-)



~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_charity
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Post by _charity »

truth dancer wrote:
I am trying to be less wordy in my responses. Five words TD. Abrahama and Sarah before Pharoah.


Ohhh so yes Joseph did indeed lie.

Why not just be straightforward about it?

He lied. (Only two words). ;-)



~dancer~


TD, I thought you knew about juvenile responses and adult responses? "With all thy gettiung, get understanding."
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Again, why not be straight forward about it? Why all the nonsense?

I'm seriously asking why you are having a difficult time here.



~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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