Spong on "God's intervention"

[_Roger Morrison]

From his answer to that question:

Can God stop a hurricane from barreling down on New Orleans? Can God stop a tsunami before it kills 300,000 people in the Indian Ocean? Can God stop the inevitable progress of an incurable disease? If God can do that, why does not God do so?

What is easier to see is how God might enable a person to be more attuned to the world and thus more sensitive to its evils and more dedicated to committing human energy to eradicate these evils.

I am convinced that we must stop seeing God as a being like us, but without human limits, and begin seeing God as a permeating presence, a life force, the power of love or even what my favorite theologian, Paul Tillich, called the "ground of being." If we could do that, I might begin to be able to answer your question. Until that shift takes place, your question will always perplex human beings.

John Shelby Spong

Really the unknowable? Does it matter? Who cares, and why would they? Thoughts?? Roger

[_Some Schmo]

So essentially what he's saying is that the fantasy about god that others have is not useful when trying to communicate ideas about his own fantasy about god.

Geez, never heard that sentiment expressed before...

;)

[_truth dancer]

Hey Roger... :-)

I love the quote.

Here is how I view it. ;-)

We are such a little tiny bleep in the universe, with only five or so senses that give us the ability to perceive the universe. If I recall correctly scientist have discovered 30 or so additional senses in various life forms on this earth. Only about 1% of all creatures that have existed on our planet are still around. So who knows how many senses exist? Each sense "creating" a reality based on what is perceived.

And if we contemplate how many billions of other forms of existence may be possible, (say non carbon based creatures), and what they may perceive, I'm thinking it is safe to say we know just next to nothing about the universe.

So... there is the mystery, which is basically everything that we do not know about the universe, which is pretty much everything. ;-)

The mystery, in my opinion is the "ground of being" or Source, or whatever one wants to call it. The need to anthropomorphize this mystery is what I think has become God.

Anyway... my interpretation of Spong's quote is that this idea of seeing God as humans is limiting (destructive?). We need to expand the paradigm to more carefully reflect the world as we know it today.

in my opinion, the old myths are just so not working in today's world. They may have worked for ancient peoples but today, the very fact that so many are lost and alone, in some way speaks to the idea that we, as a species are somewhat lost.

The new myth, in my opinion, is how we now understand the world and our place in it today.

Just like anciently, the myths were an attempt to find meaning, to discover one's place in the universe, to guide human behavior, so to, today, our myths are based on our present day understanding through science. (OK, it will take a while for these to replace some of the ancient ones... smile).

Another thousand or million years from now, folks will be looking back at us and wondering about our myths that are based on what we know about our world.

I think the best way to exist in this world is to embrace what we "know," knowing we know nothing...(smile). It allows us to manage life while holding onto new possibilities to expand our hearts and minds. We won't get caught up in holding onto what doesn't work, or thinking we know everything about existence.

But what do I know? LOL!

:-)

Nice topic Roger,

~dancer~

[_Trinity]

I just finished reading Sins of Scripture and I love this guy's progressive way of thinking. It's very ambitious to be sure. He is setting the footwork for people to question the authentic and pure nature of the holy scriptures, and is planting seeds of a better, more enlightened God. It's a start.

Just like anciently, the myths were an attempt to find meaning, to discover one's place in the universe, to guide human behavior, so to, today, our myths are based on our present day understanding through science. (OK, it will take a while for these to replace some of the ancient ones... smile).

Another thousand or million years from now, folks will be looking back at us and wondering about our myths that are based on what we know about our world.

I was going over some traditional navajo taboos the other night with my son, and this came to mind, so I'm really glad you mentioned it TD. I thought immediately to some of the (what I call) superstitions surrounding the christian God, things like the Holy Ghost, particularly actions conditional upon keeping the presence of the HG, etc.

Here's a few of the navajo ones. I have to share them because they were just so amusing to us:

1. Do not weave when it is storming or it will cause lightning. This depends on the pattern being designed on the loom.
2. Do not shake a pinon tree to get nuts because only bears do that. Behaving like a bear is bad behavior. It will also attract the bears to you.
3. Do not kill a spider unless you draw a circle around it and say, " you have no relatives." Or "a Zuni did it." If you don't its relatives will come and bite you.
4. Do not kill grasshoppers because it will give you a nosebleed.

Here are some of the Mormon ones. I have to share them because they are so amusing to me:

1. If you allow yourself to become sexually aroused prior to marriage, you commit a moral sin.” (Von Harrison, Is Kissing Sinful?, 1994:4)
2. If the temptation (to masturbate) seems overpowering while you are in bed, GET OUT OF BED AND GO INTO THE KITCHEN AND FIX YOURSELF A SNACK, even if it is in the middle of the night, and even if you are not hungry, and despite your fears of gaining weight.(Mark E Peterson, Steps in Overcoming Masturbation)
3. Keep your bladder empty. Refrain from drinking large amounts of fluids before retiring. (Mark E Peterson, Steps in Overcoming Masturbation)
4. Do not drink coffee or tea because it has caffeine stimulants which are bad for the body and you will run and weary and walk and be faint.
5. Do not have sex before marriage, otherwise you might get pregnant and will lose all of your potential and die a poor, sinful creature.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Trinity... :-)

LOL!

I remember many years ago watching a program about the Ancient Egyptians and their religious beliefs. I found myself amazed at some of the things they believed and wondered how they could believe such nonsense. Then catching myself and "knowing" that in another five thousand years there would be humans amused at my beliefs.

In that moment, I wondered how I could know what is truth. I wondered why my belief was any more true than those ancient peoples. I wondered how easily it is to make up "truths" based on what we think we know.

Funny how these little experiences alter our paradigm.

:-)

~dancer~