asbestosman wrote:I also heard speculation that the other two kingdoms are equal in glory, but that one side contains males and the other side contains females. That way they can break up families who aren't sealed and they can also prevent sex.
But as long as the ones in the 'higher' section can go and 'visit' (nudge nudge wink wink) the ones in the lower section, then that wouldn't work...
...unless they get their memories erased too? Then it'd just be a case of one convincing the other.
"Honestly - it's me honey! For goodness sakes believe me. It's been 100,000 years now!!!
Well, it would probably have to be the other way around with the higher ups not remembering the lower downs. If you didn't remember you had any family what's there to be sad about?
Dad comes to visit, I don't know who the hell he is - my dad is sad not me.
Dad doesn't come to visit, doesn't remember me, I can't go visit anyway - I'm sad not my dad.
See, that's the only way it would be painful for us lower-downs. That and remembering all the sex we're not getting anymore.
Insert ironic quote from fellow board member here.
MishMagnet wrote:Well, it would probably have to be the other way around with the higher ups not remembering the lower downs.
I get ya - but then if the higher-ups don't remember the lower-downs, why would they go visit?
Can the lower-downs "call 'em up" and convince them?
EDIT: Sorry - missed your point. They wouldn't visit. Got ya.
...so the only point of visitation to the lower kingdoms might be to go visit friends etc? Or maybe just see how the 'others' live for a bit...
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
truth dancer wrote:I find non-members who are unfamiliar with LDS teachings have a difficult time understanding the LDS version of the afterlife. There is often some misleading statements from members playing on words to suggest what is not true.
I've heard some members suggest that everyone goes to heaven except the very few who are cast into OD, suggesting all three Kingdoms are heaven.
It is as if these members want to separate themselves from traditional Christianity by claiming that their version is better because most people will be saved and be happy forever... no one (with few exceptions) goes to Hell.
However, the truth is, the church teaches (in my experience), that families will not be together forever in any of the lower Kingdoms, nor will these folks be with God.
Is there ANYONE on this planet who thinks NOT being with loved ones and beloved family members is anywhere close to heaven?
Some apologists suggest that everyone will be where they are most happy in the next life, hence they will be in heaven.
Who on the planet would be most happy without loved ones? Separated forever from those they care for the most?
According to teachings as I understand them, only those who make it to the CK will be with God. (Personally, I think the LDS version of God is not worthy of any worship, nor would I remotely want to reside with him), however, most people who believe in heaven consider heaven to be where God resides.
The reality is, only those who believe in Joseph Smith (and non-test takers) will be in what most would consider heaven, ie. being with God and loved ones.
I find it completely disingenuous for LDS members to suggest that anything but the CK is heaven.
Unless heaven means something other than what many religions consider heaven, (being with God and loved ones for eternity), only believers of Joseph Smith, and those who did not have to take the test will be in heaven.
~dancer~
While some of your points are valid I think your approach is much to simplistic. Perhaps it is as much so as you think the LDS are that you describe in your post. The level of heaven are after all each called glories. In the terrestrial the Son ministers to it inhabitants and in the telestial the Holy Ghost. So there is a godly presence. Yet you are correct that in only the Celestial will people be with the father. In the Celestial that is also the only kingdom where familial ties are considered eternal. However, I suppose if one is in say the terrestrial kingdom and your son, daughter, mother cousin or spouse ended up there you could still hang out together. Some also speculate that one can progress form one kingdom to another.
Also I think very few other then posters that are of the mind set Charity is argue that you will get what you want in teh future world. More correctly they are really saying you get what you deserve or as the D&C puts it if you cannot abide a celestial law you cannot abide a celestial glory. I assume that plays into the argument that if you did not live a celestial law you would be miserable in the celestial kingdom. But it is not really a get what you want type deal.
Just to put fuel on the fire, I heard speculation that even in the CK, only the highest kingdom allows families to be together. I also heard speculation that the other two kingdoms are equal in glory, but that one side contains males and the other side contains females. That way they can break up families who aren't sealed and they can also prevent sex.
Of course, none of that is official doctrine. Well, maybe the part about families only being together in the highest part of the CK (exaltation).
I also heard that the TL is much better than this life. I can hardly imagine how this would be so without being able to visit friends and family who are in the same kingdom. If we can't visit, can we at least video chat?
Another odd thing to keep in mind is that we're all family in the first place. It would seem that the only way the afterlife could keep me from my family would be to put me in solitary confinement. Last I heard, people go insane in solitary after just a little while. I wonder what an eternity of it would do? Maybe it wouldn't be so bad with video chat.
Which all speaks to my OP.... how can believers claim the Tel and Ter Kingdom are heaven?
I too have heard that the CKHL is reserved for families. Those who are not sealed but are members get in the CK but are servants to the Gods and Goddesses.
And anyone out there who claims the LDS church has official doctrine, could you please enlighten us here?
:-)
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
While some of your points are valid I think your approach is much to simplistic.
Well my point was really about how anyone can call all Kingdoms heaven. I think it is very misleading and flat out wrong.
Perhaps it is as much so as you think the LDS are that you describe in your post. The level of heaven are after all each called glories. In the terrestrial the Son ministers to it inhabitants and in the telestial the Holy Ghost.
Is this official doctrine or speculation? Your opinion? ;-) Seems there is some confusion on this point.
Also I think very few other then posters that are of the mind set Charity is argue that you will get what you want in the future world.
I was trying to be polite. :-)
More correctly they are really saying you get what you deserve or as the D&C puts it if you cannot abide a celestial law you cannot abide a celestial glory. I assume that plays into the argument that if you did not live a celestial law you would be miserable in the celestial kingdom. But it is not really a get what you want type deal.
Yep!
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj