Chastity, Young Marrieds, and Pregnancy

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Charity, from your post, into which i'll comment in bold:

Hi Charity, respectfully Sis, your position on this subject is no less prejudiced than anyone elses # 3. It is even less based on fact, as you allude in # 1. OTOH, your assumption is more a matter of LDS type cultural conditioning that presupposes the evils of carnal, sensuous & devilish humans to be THE motivator of our species. IT IS NOT!


And what is your bias based on? RM: Much the same as yours: "My" understanding of humankind, and my understanding of the "God" power that directs the Universe, and the interdependency of all creation to fill their appointed role in the food-chain, in the lower levels of creation. In the highest level, humanity, we differ from the lower because we care. Not about "God", but about our "neighbors" (as Jesus taught). Our creativity is intended to demonstrate our caring for others--as Jesus taught--not to make the inventive rich, but to feed, clothe and care for the whole of humanity. Picking dumps to find food should not be a life necessity while others live as super-rich. My "God" is more concerned with suffering than with chastity.

Roger Morrison wrote:

# 2. In the grand scope of things, "...loss of chastity..." is probably one of the least important "losses" a person experiences. That a false seditious interpretation of Mormon morality places it next to murder is a heinous absurdity deserving spiritual, intellectual revue. Do you care to engage in such a an objective discussion?


In whose grand scope of things? What revue? You don't accept God's pronouncments. He doesn't accept yours. Impasse. RM: I don't see "Impasse" as you do. To me an "impasse" simply requires further dialogue to reach understanding and acceptance, if not agreement.

You go on to say:

The loss of Heavenly Father's presence is the ultimate tragedy. It doesn't matter what the larger human society says. The larger human society accepts almost any degraded behavior. Presidents committ sexual infidelity in the Oval Office while talking on the telephone to a senator and he is lionized. Enron executivies cheated thousands of workers out of their pensions and they still had their lavish parties surrounded by "friends." O.J. Simpson murdered two people and is still on the A list. I don't think much of "larger human society's" standards.

RM: Your theological understanding of humanity does tend to limit serious discussion. None the less, in my seriously considered opinion (IMSCO) a person cannot lose "God". That would be impossible. With every breath and blink one engages "God". We depend on the "larger...society" to regulate traffic, provide community security, education and health care to mention only the basics. That society is made up of folks very much like you and me. Responsible, responsive people providing for their families, and paying taxes. Certainly there is the criminal element needing remedy. Do you not see yourself as part of the "larger..."? Do you differ greatly from your neighbors, co-workers, or most others in the Super Market or Malls? Not sure what the "A list" is??

And just for your information, sexual immorality is one of the biggest causes of suffering today. The spread of AIDS, the breakup of families, the victimization of individuals are great tragedies even among this larger human society. RM: I think you might find "sexual immorality" as most immoralities are visible symptoms of deeper cause. Most prostitutes have had serious family abuses before turning pro. Tainted blood added to the AIDS problem. Certainly victimization is not to be tolerated among any element of society. Respectfully Sis, i think ignorance and indifference Trump fornication as causes of suffering. An ignorant, indifferent person, chaste or not, is in no possition or condition to contribute much but labour to society. Caring, educated persons OTOH chaste or not have contributed to the comfort, security and what ever level of prosperity we all enjoy.

Charity:

They aren't relegated to any liower status in this life or the next, by me. I have stated before, I don't think the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial kngdoms are a matter of good, better, best. I think they are just DIFFERENT for where people want to be. If you wouldn't be happy in the celetial kingdom why would you feel bad you didn't get to go there? And why would I feel bad for you if you were exactly where you would be the happiest?

Your 'relagation' or not is irrelevant. It is the ediction of Church leaders that is disturbing. Yes, you have stated your opinion before. IMSCO, it is simply an apologistic rationalization to comfort your soul. It strikes me odd that the Social Caste system has been branded as socially unacceptable. Particularly by freedom loving North Americans. And yet to envision a Heavenly Caste System as "God's" way, seems so obviously inconsistant?? Roger

[_guy sajer]

Hi Charity, from your post, into which I'll comment in bold:

Hi Charity, respectfully Sis, your position on this subject is no less prejudiced than anyone elses # 3. It is even less based on fact, as you allude in # 1. OTOH, your assumption is more a matter of LDS type cultural conditioning that presupposes the evils of carnal, sensuous & devilish humans to be THE motivator of our species. IT IS NOT!


And what is your bias based on? RM: Much the same as yours: "My" understanding of humankind, and my understanding of the "God" power that directs the Universe, and the interdependency of all creation to fill their appointed role in the food-chain, in the lower levels of creation. In the highest level, humanity, we differ from the lower because we care. Not about "God", but about our "neighbors" (as Jesus taught). Our creativity is intended to demonstrate our caring for others--as Jesus taught--not to make the inventive rich, but to feed, clothe and care for the whole of humanity. Picking dumps to find food should not be a life necessity while others live as super-rich. My "God" is more concerned with suffering than with chastity.

Roger Morrison wrote:

# 2. In the grand scope of things, "...loss of chastity..." is probably one of the least important "losses" a person experiences. That a false seditious interpretation of Mormon morality places it next to murder is a heinous absurdity deserving spiritual, intellectual revue. Do you care to engage in such a an objective discussion?


In whose grand scope of things? What revue? You don't accept God's pronouncments. He doesn't accept yours. Impasse. RM: I don't see "Impasse" as you do. To me an "impasse" simply requires further dialogue to reach understanding and acceptance, if not agreement.

You go on to say:

The loss of Heavenly Father's presence is the ultimate tragedy. It doesn't matter what the larger human society says. The larger human society accepts almost any degraded behavior. Presidents committ sexual infidelity in the Oval Office while talking on the telephone to a senator and he is lionized. Enron executivies cheated thousands of workers out of their pensions and they still had their lavish parties surrounded by "friends." O.J. Simpson murdered two people and is still on the A list. I don't think much of "larger human society's" standards.

RM: Your theological understanding of humanity does tend to limit serious discussion. None the less, in my seriously considered opinion (IMSCO) a person cannot lose "God". That would be impossible. With every breath and blink one engages "God". We depend on the "larger...society" to regulate traffic, provide community security, education and health care to mention only the basics. That society is made up of folks very much like you and me. Responsible, responsive people providing for their families, and paying taxes. Certainly there is the criminal element needing remedy. Do you not see yourself as part of the "larger..."? Do you differ greatly from your neighbors, co-workers, or most others in the Super Market or Malls? Not sure what the "A list" is??

And just for your information, sexual immorality is one of the biggest causes of suffering today. The spread of AIDS, the breakup of families, the victimization of individuals are great tragedies even among this larger human society. RM: I think you might find "sexual immorality" as most immoralities are visible symptoms of deeper cause. Most prostitutes have had serious family abuses before turning pro. Tainted blood added to the AIDS problem. Certainly victimization is not to be tolerated among any element of society. Respectfully Sis, I think ignorance and indifference Trump fornication as causes of suffering. An ignorant, indifferent person, chaste or not, is in no possition or condition to contribute much but labour to society. Caring, educated persons OTOH chaste or not have contributed to the comfort, security and what ever level of prosperity we all enjoy.

Charity:

They aren't relegated to any liower status in this life or the next, by me. I have stated before, I don't think the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial kngdoms are a matter of good, better, best. I think they are just DIFFERENT for where people want to be. If you wouldn't be happy in the celetial kingdom why would you feel bad you didn't get to go there? And why would I feel bad for you if you were exactly where you would be the happiest?

Your 'relagation' or not is irrelevant. It is the ediction of Church leaders that is disturbing. Yes, you have stated your opinion before. IMSCO, it is simply an apologistic rationalization to comfort your soul. It strikes me odd that the Social Caste system has been branded as socially unacceptable. Particularly by freedom loving North Americans. And yet to envision a Heavenly Caste System as "God's" way, seems so obviously inconsistant?? Roger

The point is, Roger, that Charity thinks the Heavenly Caste System is fair, because she believes that she will benefit thereby.

If, on the other hand, the Heavenly Caste System would assign her a lower caste, despite the fact the she lived an otherwise honorable life, simply because she couldn't get herself to believe some presumed prophet's claims, she would, no doubt, view the Heavenly Caste System with a more jaundiced perspective.

I, moreover, strongly suspect that she (and other TBMs) considers unfair teachings of other religions that would consign her to eternal torment simply because she did not accept this or that dogmatic belief. But, she fails to reflect that they too might consider her belief about their eternal destiny to be unfair also, and for the same very valid reason she considers their beliefs unfair.

Let us also not forget the D&C 76 is very clear that for the "honorable men of the earth" who do not accept the gospel in this life, their fate is the Terrestrial Kingdom, even if they accept the "gospel" in the next life.

She consoles herself by pretending that those of us assigned to lower castes will be content, nonetheless, because that's all we wanted anyway, or something like that. Yet from our perspective, to be denied a loving father's full blessings, to be ripped apart from our loved ones, to be denied forever the presence of our loving father, to live eternally as a member of a lower caste, despite the fact that we did our best to lead honorable and good lives, simply because we could not believe in what struck us as fanciful myths or we were not willing to devote our lives to a man whom we consider, for very valid reason, to have been a moral degenerate, this strikes us as eminently unfair and unjust, and there's no way we are going to giddily accept it as our just desserts.

Charity has bought into all sorts of comforting myths. Why not just this one more?

[_Roger Morrison]

Good points Guy, you said:

She consoles herself by pretending that those of us assigned to lower castes will be content, nonetheless, because that's all we wanted anyway, or something like that. Yet from our perspective, to be denied a loving father's full blessings, to be ripped apart from our loved ones, to be denied forever the presence of our loving father, to live eternally as a member of a lower caste, despite the fact that we did our best to lead honorable and good lives, simply because we could not believe in what struck us as fanciful myths or we were not willing to devote our lives to a man whom we consider, for very valid reason, to have been a moral degenerate, this strikes us as eminently unfair and unjust, and there's no way we are going to giddily accept it as our just desserts.

The irony, IMSCO, is we can "giddily accept" the whole Fall, Restitution and, Three Glory Levels for the jokes they are. We get the last LOL :-) Warm regards, Roger

[_Coggins7]

Was the Virgin birth a planned pregnancy?

I don't know, but Jesse Jackson said Mary and Joseph were homeless.

[_Coggins7]

So why is it that having to get married and have a baby at a very young age will doom their futures, and result in a low-paying job, when if the same couple had reversed the order, and done nothing different except by marrying first and then getting pregnant, they would be celebrated by this same prophet?

GREAT POINT, beastie! I hadn't made the connection before, but you're absolutely right (as usual).

Was the Virgin birth a planned pregnancy?

Joseph at least had a trade.

??? Joseph was into wife-swapping?

At the point of Elohim's climax with Mary, did he scream "Oh ME! Oh ME!! Oh My ME!!!"?

Is this a function of poor parenting, low IQ, early childhood trauma, or a steadfast refusal to move beyond the anal stage?

[_Scottie]

So why is it that having to get married and have a baby at a very young age will doom their futures, and result in a low-paying job, when if the same couple had reversed the order, and done nothing different except by marrying first and then getting pregnant, they would be celebrated by this same prophet?

GREAT POINT, beastie! I hadn't made the connection before, but you're absolutely right (as usual).

Was the Virgin birth a planned pregnancy?

Joseph at least had a trade.

??? Joseph was into wife-swapping?

At the point of Elohim's climax with Mary, did he scream "Oh ME! Oh ME!! Oh My ME!!!"?

Is this a function of poor parenting, low IQ, early childhood trauma, or a steadfast refusal to move beyond the anal stage?

I'm rubber and you're glue...

[_beastie]

Is this a function of poor parenting, low IQ, early childhood trauma, or a steadfast refusal to move beyond the anal stage?

Probably a function of being emotionally stunted in Mormonism for so long. :D