Christianity vs Mormonism

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_the road to hana
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Re: Mis Analysis on Religion

Post by _the road to hana »

GoodK wrote:
the road to hana wrote:
GoodK wrote:This is really simple - Why do Christians believe a man named Jesus is their savior? Because the Bible teaches it.


Christianity predates the Bible (certainly, the New Testament accounts that tell of Jesus), so your premise is flawed.

I hate to say this, but I'm inclined to agree with those who are suggesting that you appear somewhat uninformed on this topic.


I love being accused of being uninformed. I think that's twice now that you've said that ... but I don't see why...

My original post asked for reasons why Christianity is true, and Mormonism isn't - seeing as most posters on this DB are glad to join the dog-pile against anything LDS, I found it ironic that some people here seem to think the Bible is any more reliable/authentic/respectable than the Book of Mormon.


Reliable/authentic/respectable in what sense? They're just completely different documents, with different provenances, regardless of differences in theology.

You have yet to initiate a defense, or even an answer, to this.

Instead, you have asked for specific things I find manifestly false in the Bible - which I listed a few for you - and then you set about disputing the idea that Christians actually believe some of those things. That isn't adequate.


I think you're confusing me with Jersey Girl here. She asked for specific things you find manifestly false in the Bible; I did not.

All I did was dispute some of your assertions.

I've been willing to engage you in this venture so far, but I'm starting to get a little weary as to where this is going.

Christianity pre-dates the Bible?

At best, I think this is debatable.


No it isn't. Christianity arose as a sect of Judaism, a cult around an individual, in the first century A.D. The "Bible" as we know it wasn't compiled and canonized until somewhat later. Sure, the early Christians were familiar with the Jewish scriptures, which comprise most of what we currently know as the Old Testament. Certain documents that ended up canonized in the New Testament were familiar in the early generations of Christianity. But Christianity itself absolutely predates the compilation and canonization of the Bible.

It certainly isn't indisputable, but I'm willing to admit I'm wrong when I am wrong. Please, if I'm wrong, show me. And then after you do that, let's get back to the real topic.


You're wrong on that, as noted. You're also wrong in asserting that Christians believe in a literal Bible. We got off on the topic of literality when I asked you for clarification on your original question.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
_Ray A

Re: Mis Analysis on Religion

Post by _Ray A »

GoodK wrote:Christianity pre-dates the Bible?

At best, I think this is debatable. It certainly isn't indisputable, but I'm willing to admit I'm wrong when I am wrong. Please, if I'm wrong, show me. And then after you do that, let's get back to the real topic.


I'd like some clarification on this too, from a biblical (or biblical scholarship) or Christian perspective. Maybe RTH can clarify.
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

GoodK wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
GoodK wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:GoodK
I'm sorry if my post was a little vague, I'll try and clarify it a bit.
I don't like to facilitate cherry picking of the Bible. If a Christian moderate is going to claim that they don't literally believe in the global flood, then I am glad to be in agreement with them. But their doctrine does teach it. I also don't think most contemporary Christians will teach their children that the global flood or Adam and Eve are allegories.

I understand that the majority of contemporary Christianity does not take the fundamentalist approach to interpreting the Bible - that's mostly why I left the killing of homosexuals, adulterers and heretics off my brief list. However, I feel like the moderate approach is still worthy of contempt.


The Bible doesn't teach a global flood, GoodK.


Are you kidding? Is Genesis chapter 6 and 7 missing from your Bible?

Jersey Girl wrote:What portions of scripture do you see referring to homosexuality that you disagree with?


It would be safe to say that I disagree with anything the Bible says about homosexuality... but Leviticus 20:13 is a gem. Lest anyone say that this sort of stupidity only resides in the Old Testament, Romans 1:24-32 is a good showing of St. Paul's wisdom.


No, GoodK, I'm not "kidding". Would you like to provide quotes to support your assertions?

I'm good for either the flood or homosexuality. Preferrably in separate posts.

Thanks,
Jersey Girl


Didn't you just quote me giving you references? Are you asking me to type out the actual verses? Here, just in case you missed the post in which you are responding to:


[...]Is Genesis chapter 6 and 7 missing from your Bible?[...]

[...]Leviticus 20:13[...] [...]Romans 1:24-32[...]


Let me clarify what I'm asking. I'd like you to quote the scripture in context. There is no need for you to "type out" the actual verses. You can access the Bible online and copy and paste it here.
_Ray A

Re: Mis Analysis on Religion

Post by _Ray A »

the road to hana wrote:No it isn't. Christianity arose as a sect of Judaism, a cult around an individual, in the first century A.D. The "Bible" as we know it wasn't compiled and canonized until somewhat later. Sure, the early Christians were familiar with the Jewish scriptures, which comprise most of what we currently know as the Old Testament. Certain documents that ended up canonized in the New Testament were familiar in the early generations of Christianity. But Christianity itself absolutely predates the compilation and canonization of the Bible.


I see, the compilation and canonisation.
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

Jersey Girl wrote:GoodK

The doctrine that the entire Christian faith is founded upon does.
This is really simple - Why do Christians believe a man named Jesus is their savior? Because the Bible teaches it. Will science be obligated to absolutely disprove this before Christians revise their faith?

If they choose to cherry pick the Bible and discard other easily falsifiable claims, that is their own human ethics/logic/reasoning at work. This should serve as proof that humans do not need the Bible to tell us how to live.


GoodK,

As I go through your comments on this thread, I'm reminded of a post I recently made on another board wherein I discuss skeptics arguing a literal position and that is exactly what you're doing here. On this thread, so far as I've read, you make no mention at all of Hebrew symbolism and only one reference that I can see to allegory.

You are holding the Bible to a flat literal view in order to discredit it.

Why?

(JAK if you are reading here, this is exactly what I referred to on another board.)


You say that Christians don't believe in the story of Noah literally. I find that to be manifestly false.

The Official British Education Standards for children ages 5-11 encourages teachers to teach children the story of Noah's ark. Here is from the department for children, schools, and families (http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/primary/)

"Explain, using simple words, that Noah built the Ark because he obeyed God. Talk about their own experience about being obedient, or disobedient... It is important to remember that although the story of Noah's ark is one of the most popular and well known Bible stories, it was not written as a children's story. Thought needs to be given to some of the difficult questions raised by the story. Belief in a God that uses natural disasters to punish people, for example. And questions regarding whether that promise has been kept."

Of course I expect you to know that the Noah story isn't historically accurate, yet children are still being taught that a rainbow is a sign of God's promise not to flood the world again.

I think I am being completely fair in the way I am holding the Bible.
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

GoodK wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:GoodK

The doctrine that the entire Christian faith is founded upon does.
This is really simple - Why do Christians believe a man named Jesus is their savior? Because the Bible teaches it. Will science be obligated to absolutely disprove this before Christians revise their faith?

If they choose to cherry pick the Bible and discard other easily falsifiable claims, that is their own human ethics/logic/reasoning at work. This should serve as proof that humans do not need the Bible to tell us how to live.


GoodK,

As I go through your comments on this thread, I'm reminded of a post I recently made on another board wherein I discuss skeptics arguing a literal position and that is exactly what you're doing here. On this thread, so far as I've read, you make no mention at all of Hebrew symbolism and only one reference that I can see to allegory.

You are holding the Bible to a flat literal view in order to discredit it.

Why?

(JAK if you are reading here, this is exactly what I referred to on another board.)


You say that Christians don't believe in the story of Noah literally. I find that to be manifestly false.

The Official British Education Standards for children ages 5-11 encourages teachers to teach children the story of Noah's ark. Here is from the department for children, schools, and families (http://www.standards.dfes.gov.uk/primary/)

"Explain, using simple words, that Noah built the Ark because he obeyed God. Talk about their own experience about being obedient, or disobedient... It is important to remember that although the story of Noah's ark is one of the most popular and well known Bible stories, it was not written as a children's story. Thought needs to be given to some of the difficult questions raised by the story. Belief in a God that uses natural disasters to punish people, for example. And questions regarding whether that promise has been kept."

Of course I expect you to know that the Noah story isn't historically accurate, yet children are still being taught that a rainbow is a sign of God's promise not to flood the world again.

I think I am being completely fair in the way I am holding the Bible.


While you're holding the Bible, would you mind quoting it in context as I requested?
_the road to hana
_Emeritus
Posts: 1485
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 4:35 pm

Post by _the road to hana »

GoodK wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:GoodK

The doctrine that the entire Christian faith is founded upon does.
This is really simple - Why do Christians believe a man named Jesus is their savior? Because the Bible teaches it. Will science be obligated to absolutely disprove this before Christians revise their faith?

If they choose to cherry pick the Bible and discard other easily falsifiable claims, that is their own human ethics/logic/reasoning at work. This should serve as proof that humans do not need the Bible to tell us how to live.


GoodK,

As I go through your comments on this thread, I'm reminded of a post I recently made on another board wherein I discuss skeptics arguing a literal position and that is exactly what you're doing here. On this thread, so far as I've read, you make no mention at all of Hebrew symbolism and only one reference that I can see to allegory.

You are holding the Bible to a flat literal view in order to discredit it.

Why?

(JAK if you are reading here, this is exactly what I referred to on another board.)


You say that Christians don't believe in the story of Noah literally. I find that to be manifestly false.


Some Christians believe the story of Noah literally. Some don't.

So how, then, is the proposition "manifestly false?"

Here's a direct quote from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
"Neither Sacred Scripture nor universal ecclesiastical tradition, nor again scientific considerations, render it advisable to adhere to the opinion that the Flood covered the whole surface of the earth."


That doesn't sound like Christians who "believe the story of Noah literally."
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

Jersey Girl wrote:
GoodK wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:
GoodK wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:GoodK
I'm sorry if my post was a little vague, I'll try and clarify it a bit.
I don't like to facilitate cherry picking of the Bible. If a Christian moderate is going to claim that they don't literally believe in the global flood, then I am glad to be in agreement with them. But their doctrine does teach it. I also don't think most contemporary Christians will teach their children that the global flood or Adam and Eve are allegories.

I understand that the majority of contemporary Christianity does not take the fundamentalist approach to interpreting the Bible - that's mostly why I left the killing of homosexuals, adulterers and heretics off my brief list. However, I feel like the moderate approach is still worthy of contempt.


The Bible doesn't teach a global flood, GoodK.


Are you kidding? Is Genesis chapter 6 and 7 missing from your Bible?

Jersey Girl wrote:What portions of scripture do you see referring to homosexuality that you disagree with?


It would be safe to say that I disagree with anything the Bible says about homosexuality... but Leviticus 20:13 is a gem. Lest anyone say that this sort of stupidity only resides in the Old Testament, Romans 1:24-32 is a good showing of St. Paul's wisdom.


No, GoodK, I'm not "kidding". Would you like to provide quotes to support your assertions?

I'm good for either the flood or homosexuality. Preferrably in separate posts.

Thanks,
Jersey Girl


Didn't you just quote me giving you references? Are you asking me to type out the actual verses? Here, just in case you missed the post in which you are responding to:


[...]Is Genesis chapter 6 and 7 missing from your Bible?[...]

[...]Leviticus 20:13[...] [...]Romans 1:24-32[...]


Let me clarify what I'm asking. I'd like you to quote the scripture in context. There is no need for you to "type out" the actual verses. You can access the Bible online and copy and paste it here.


Are you trying to imply that I am not quoting the Bible correctly? This is silly, but here you go (you could have done this yourself)

The Bible on the flood:

Genesis chapter 6 and 7:

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal [b] ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

9 This is the account of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress [c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [d] 16 Make a roof for it and finish [e] the ark to within 18 inches [f] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."
22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven [a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

5 And Noah did all that the LORD commanded him.

6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.

17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [b] , [c] 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.

The Bible on homosexuality:

Leviticus 20:13

13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

Romans 1: 24-32

[24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
[25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


There. Knock yourself out.
_Jersey Girl
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Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Let me point out something to you, GoodK. Near the beginning of this thread you stated that you find some Christian claims/beliefs ridiculous and easily falsifiable. I think you also stated that you dislike cherry picking verses.

When I asked you to demonstrate the claims/beliefs you find ridiculous, you posted single Bible ref's. When I asked you to post them in context, you shifted your position from what you believe in the Bible to be ridiculous to what is being taught to Christian children.

I'm asking you to post the scripture in context that you think demonstrates that the Bible teaches (not Sunday School classes) a global flood and condemnation against homosexuality.
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

Jersey Girl wrote:Let me point out something to you, GoodK. Near the beginning of this thread you stated that you find some Christian claims/beliefs ridiculous and easily falsifiable. I think you also stated that you dislike cherry picking verses.

When I asked you to demonstrate the claims/beliefs you find ridiculous, you posted single Bible ref's. When I asked you to post them in context, you shifted your position from what you believe in the Bible to be ridiculous to what is being taught to Christian children.

I'm asking you to post the scripture in context that you think demonstrates that the Bible teaches (not Sunday School classes) a global flood and condemnation against homosexuality.


I did. Just to humor you. Now let's have that bombshell you are about to drop...
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