Christianity vs Mormonism

[_Jersey Girl]

I see your post above, thank you for posting context.

[_Ray A]

Out of interest I'll link to some Christians who do believe Noah's Ark literally:

3.1.2 Review of the species that exist today

Interesting results are obtained when the class is given a brief review of the animal species we know today. The objective is to make the students realize that not much room is necessary to fit those species into the Ark. On the one hand, if we want to prove this, we must take into account the current marine species that obviously did not need to enter the Ark. On the other hand, we should also take into account the huge quantity of small-sized land species, such as the insects, that would have occupied very little space.

http://www.aiias.edu/ict/vol_26A/26Acc_057-077.htm

[_Jersey Girl]

Let me point out something to you, GoodK. Near the beginning of this thread you stated that you find some Christian claims/beliefs ridiculous and easily falsifiable. I think you also stated that you dislike cherry picking verses.

When I asked you to demonstrate the claims/beliefs you find ridiculous, you posted single Bible ref's. When I asked you to post them in context, you shifted your position from what you believe in the Bible to be ridiculous to what is being taught to Christian children.

I'm asking you to post the scripture in context that you think demonstrates that the Bible teaches (not Sunday School classes) a global flood and condemnation against homosexuality.

I did. Just to humor you. Now let's have that bombshell you are about to drop...

I'm attempting to communicate with you, GoodK, as in "discussion board".

[_GoodK]

No it isn't. Christianity arose as a sect of Judaism, a cult around an individual, in the first century A.D. The "Bible" as we know it wasn't compiled and canonized until somewhat later. Sure, the early Christians were familiar with the Jewish scriptures, which comprise most of what we currently know as the Old Testament. Certain documents that ended up canonized in the New Testament were familiar in the early generations of Christianity. But Christianity itself absolutely predates the compilation and canonization of the Bible.

This is your queue to give some kind of source or reference so I don't have to take your word for it... and then I'll gladly admit to being wrong on this specific point. And sorry if I confused with Jersey Girl.

[_the road to hana]

Out of interest I'll link to some Christians who do believe Noah's Ark literally:

3.1.2 Review of the species that exist today

Interesting results are obtained when the class is given a brief review of the animal species we know today. The objective is to make the students realize that not much room is necessary to fit those species into the Ark. On the one hand, if we want to prove this, we must take into account the current marine species that obviously did not need to enter the Ark. On the other hand, we should also take into account the huge quantity of small-sized land species, such as the insects, that would have occupied very little space.

http://www.aiias.edu/ict/vol_26A/26Acc_057-077.htm

That's a Seventh Day Adventist view.

What GoodK posted above was a government view, and not even a church one (of course, if you want to get really particular about it I suppose one could assert that British education conforms to C of E principles, but that's a muddy area).

I dug deeper into her school protocols link and found that it was pretty open-ended when it gets to the more advanced aspects of the discussion, including comparing the flood story of Noah to other ancient flood stories, including Gilgamesh, and acknowledging there are not necessarily answers for some of the more profound questions involved.

In fact, the "story" of Noah and the flood is described on her link as just that, a "story," included with other Bible "stories."

[_GoodK]

No it isn't. Christianity arose as a sect of Judaism, a cult around an individual, in the first century A.D. The "Bible" as we know it wasn't compiled and canonized until somewhat later. Sure, the early Christians were familiar with the Jewish scriptures, which comprise most of what we currently know as the Old Testament. Certain documents that ended up canonized in the New Testament were familiar in the early generations of Christianity. But Christianity itself absolutely predates the compilation and canonization of the Bible.

This is your queue to give some kind of source or reference so I don't have to take your word for it... and then I'll gladly admit to being wrong on this specific point. And sorry if I confused your arguments with Jersey Girls.

I'm attempting to communicate with you, GoodK, as in "discussion board".

Ok, I am here. So are you going to do something with the Bible verses I posted in context, or did you just ask me to do it for the heck of it?

[_Jersey Girl]

Are you trying to imply that I am not quoting the Bible correctly? This is silly, but here you go (you could have done this yourself)

I'm not implying that you're quoting the Bible correctly. I do think you aren't thinking about what you're reading. Had I made the claim, I would have gladly posted it myself. I don't think that engaging in thought is silly. When you make claims on a board such as this, it's not unusual for someone to challenge your claims. Otherwise the entire thread would amount to "yup", "uh huh" and that sort of thing.

The Bible on the flood:

Genesis chapter 6 and 7:

1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with [a] man forever, for he is mortal [b] ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

9 This is the account of Noah.
Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress [c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. [d] 16 Make a roof for it and finish [e] the ark to within 18 inches [f] of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. 17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. 19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."
22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation. 2 Take with you seven [a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth. 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

5 And Noah did all that the LORD commanded him.

6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters came on the earth. 7 And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. 8 Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, 9 male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And after the seven days the floodwaters came on the earth.

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. 12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. 14 They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. 15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. 16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in.

17 For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. 18 The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. 19 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. 20 The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. [b] , [c] 21 Every living thing that moved on the earth perished—birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark.
24 The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.

I'm looking for global references, I don't see them. Are you saying that the Caananites knew the earth was round and that other countries existed?

[_GoodK]

Out of interest I'll link to some Christians who do believe Noah's Ark literally:

3.1.2 Review of the species that exist today

Interesting results are obtained when the class is given a brief review of the animal species we know today. The objective is to make the students realize that not much room is necessary to fit those species into the Ark. On the one hand, if we want to prove this, we must take into account the current marine species that obviously did not need to enter the Ark. On the other hand, we should also take into account the huge quantity of small-sized land species, such as the insects, that would have occupied very little space.

http://www.aiias.edu/ict/vol_26A/26Acc_057-077.htm

That's a Seventh Day Adventist view.

What GoodK posted above was a government view, and not even a church one (of course, if you want to get really particular about it I suppose one could assert that British education conforms to C of E principles, but that's a muddy area).

I dug deeper into her school protocols link and found that it was pretty open-ended when it gets to the more advanced aspects of the discussion, including comparing the flood story of Noah to other ancient flood stories, including Gilgamesh, and acknowledging there are not necessarily answers for some of the more profound questions involved.

In fact, the "story" of Noah and the flood is described on her link as just that, a "story," included with other Bible "stories."

You are grasping at straws my friend. There is nothing muddy about the Church's England's role in the curriculum of schools there. And the lesson plan I gave you doesn't even hint at the concept of the Noah story being allegory.

[_Ray A]

You are grasping at straws my friend. There is nothing muddy about the Church's England's role in the curriculum of schools there. And the lesson plan I gave you doesn't even hint at the concept of the Noah story being allegory.

If it was taught as an allegory, by moderates like Spong, for example, would you consider that a bad thing?

[_the road to hana]

No it isn't. Christianity arose as a sect of Judaism, a cult around an individual, in the first century A.D. The "Bible" as we know it wasn't compiled and canonized until somewhat later. Sure, the early Christians were familiar with the Jewish scriptures, which comprise most of what we currently know as the Old Testament. Certain documents that ended up canonized in the New Testament were familiar in the early generations of Christianity. But Christianity itself absolutely predates the compilation and canonization of the Bible.

This is your queue to give some kind of source or reference so I don't have to take your word for it... and then I'll gladly admit to being wrong on this specific point. And sorry if I confused with Jersey Girl.

Although the Jewish Scriptures were copied by hand, they were extremely accurate copy to copy. The Jews had a phenomenal system of scribes, who developed intricate and ritualistic methods for counting letters, words and paragraphs to insure that no copying errors were made. These scribes dedicated their entire lives to preserving the accuracy of the holy books. A single copy error would require the immediate destruction of the entire scroll. In fact, Jewish scribal tradition was maintained until the invention of the printing press in the mid-1400's AD. As far as manuscript accuracy, the recent discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls has confirmed the remarkable reliability of this scribal system over thousands of years 3 (I'll get back to the Dead Sea Scrolls later).

After approximately 400 years of scriptural silence, Jesus arrived on the scene in about 4 BC. Throughout his teaching, Jesus often quotes the Old Testament, declaring that he did not come to destroy the Jewish Scriptures, but to fulfill them. In the Book of Luke, Jesus proclaims to his disciples, "all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." 4

Starting in about 40 AD, and continuing to about 90 AD, the eye-witnesses to the life of Jesus, including Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter and Jude, wrote the Gospels, letters and books that became the Bible's New Testament. These authors quote from 31 books of the Old Testament, and widely circulate their material so that by about 150 AD, early Christians were referring to the entire set of writings as the "New Covenant." During the 200s AD, the original writings were translated from Greek into Latin, Coptic (Egypt) and Syriac (Syria), and widely disseminated as "inspired scripture" throughout the Roman Empire (and beyond). 5 In 397 AD, in an effort to protect the scriptures from various heresies and offshoot religious movements, the current 27 books of the New Testament were formally and finally confirmed and "canonized" in the Synod of Carthage.

http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/histo ... -bible.htm