What recourse do you have?

[Guest]

I asked where it is written, or where is the rule that states the slip must be marked "tithing" for it to count as tithing. Who, (besides you) states that if someone gives 10% of their increase to the church but asks the money to go help people, they are not following the commandment? Is it in the CHI? (Anyone know)?

Why is YOUR opinion better than any other TBM on this matter? Do you think YOUR ideas are somehow better than those who are following their personal inspiration?

My point is, why do YOU think YOU know?

My husband has been a financial clerk. He knows the bookkeeping system. Money which comes in earrmarked for a specific fund is handled in the bookkeeping as that fund. If the Lord wants to look at the books and say, "that's okay" that is His busienss. On the records of the Church, in the Church ledger, tithing funds are tithing funds. Anything else stays in the fund it is designated for.

And the mall is not being done with tithing funds. How many times do they have to tell you that?

You admit leaders make mistakes. You admit they are fallible. Yet if someone doesn't see eye-to-eye with a leader they have a problem? So In other words, leaders do NOT make mistakes and are INfallible? Or are leaders fallible but you must get a witness that their mistake is right? Or are you to follow even if your personal witness tells you they are making a mistake?Perhaps the HG inspired them to give the money to help those in need? Maybe it fit their personal sense of holiness to help others rather than build malls? Maybe they received a personal witness that Christ wants the money to be donated to those who are less fortunate?

This is not the question. If a person feels they want to help the less fortunate, nobody is stopping them. Help the less fortunate all they want. What would be the Church position if a person told the bishop at tithing settlement, that they had decided the Red Cross could really use the money they should be paying as tithing? People reallyl get in trouble when they start adding conditions and exceptions to the commandments of God. Do not commit adultery, unless your wife really let herself go and there is this really hot thing at work. Do not steal, unless your company wouldn't even notice if you took a laptop from work to give to your kid. Honor the Sabbath day, except when your brother in law got these great tickets to a Blazer basketball game on Sunday.

Tithing is a commandment. It isn't just a nice idea for donating to a worthwhile cause.

[_the road to hana]

And the mall is not being done with tithing funds. How many times do they have to tell you that?

Charity, once tithing funds come into the church, they are invested. It might be true that its investment income that is actually paying for the mall, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the original principal amount being invested didn't come at least in part from tithes.

[_Runtu]

And the mall is not being done with tithing funds. How many times do they have to tell you that?

Charity, once tithing funds come into the church, they are invested. It might be true that its investment income that is actually paying for the mall, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the original principal amount being invested didn't come at least in part from tithes.

If you think about it, every dollar the church has originated as a donation. Their investments were made with donations, and I would assume that tithing funds are invested today. So it's a little disingenuous to say that the mall isn't being done with tithing funds.

[_Scottie]

So, what I am getting from you, Charity, is that there is no room for personal revelation regarding tithing.

One the brethren have spoken, the thinking has been done.

Is this a correct assessment?

[_wenglund]

And the mall is not being done with tithing funds. How many times do they have to tell you that?

Charity, once tithing funds come into the church, they are invested. It might be true that its investment income that is actually paying for the mall, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the original principal amount being invested didn't come at least in part from tithes.

If you think about it, every dollar the church has originated as a donation. Their investments were made with donations, and I would assume that tithing funds are invested today. So it's a little disingenuous to say that the mall isn't being done with tithing funds.

I see it somewhat differently. I see it as straining to make a connection.

In principle (though certainly not in facts or degree) it is not much different than were person "A" to give money to a poor family to feed their kids, and later the kids grow up to join gangs and kill people, and then to have person "B" say that person "A" funded murder.

Or, lets say I buy a hamberger at McDonalds, and the owner of the McDonalds pays his employee who then uses a portion of his wages to buy porn. One then may say that I am paying for porn--though it would be a huge stretch, and taxing the bounds of credulity.

But, sometimes that kind of rhetorical stretch is what some people may think needed when criticizing the Church. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

So, what I am getting from you, Charity, is that there is no room for personal revelation regarding tithing.

One the brethren have spoken, the thinking has been done.

Is this a correct assessment?

Hey Scott,

What do you think of the options I stated (particularly #4)?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Runtu]

I see it somewhat differently. I see it as straining to make a connection.

In principle (though certainly not in facts or degree) it is not much different than were person "A" to give money to a poor family to feed their kids, and later the kids grow up to join gangs and kill people, and then to have person "B" say that person "A" funded murder.

Or, lets say I buy a hamberger at McDonalds, and the owner of the McDonalds pays his employee who then uses a portion of his wages to buy porn. One then may say that I am paying for porn--though it would be a huge stretch, and taxing the bounds of credulity.

But, sometimes that kind of rhetorical stretch is what some people may think needed when criticizing the Church. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Oh, brother, Wade. I defy you to find "criticism" of the church in my post. I made an observation that it was slightly disingenuous of charity to make a distinction between tithing funds and "for-profit" funds. They all originated in the same place: donations, primarily tithing.

Your analogies, by the way, don't work very well. They might work if your murderer and porn viewer claimed that they didn't use their wages to commit murder or view porn. But then the analogy wouldn't work at all.

[_truth dancer]

TD writes:

I asked where it is written, or where is the rule that states the slip must be marked "tithing" for it to count as tithing. Who, (besides you) states that if someone gives 10% of their increase to the church but asks the money to go help people, they are not following the commandment? Is it in the CHI? (Anyone know)?

Why is YOUR opinion better than any other TBM on this matter? Do you think YOUR ideas are somehow better than those who are following their personal inspiration?

My point is, why do YOU think YOU know?

Charity:

My husband has been a financial clerk. He knows the bookkeeping system. Money which comes in earrmarked for a specific fund is handled in the bookkeeping as that fund. If the Lord wants to look at the books and say, "that's okay" that is His busienss. On the records of the Church, in the Church ledger, tithing funds are tithing funds. Anything else stays in the fund it is designated for.

And the mall is not being done with tithing funds. How many times do they have to tell you that?

TD:

You admit leaders make mistakes. You admit they are fallible. Yet if someone doesn't see eye-to-eye with a leader they have a problem? So In other words, leaders do NOT make mistakes and are INfallible? Or are leaders fallible but you must get a witness that their mistake is right? Or are you to follow even if your personal witness tells you they are making a mistake?Perhaps the HG inspired them to give the money to help those in need? Maybe it fit their personal sense of holiness to help others rather than build malls? Maybe they received a personal witness that Christ wants the money to be donated to those who are less fortunate?

Charity:

This is not the question. If a person feels they want to help the less fortunate, nobody is stopping them. Help the less fortunate all they want. What would be the Church position if a person told the bishop at tithing settlement, that they had decided the Red Cross could really use the money they should be paying as tithing? People reallyl get in trouble when they start adding conditions and exceptions to the commandments of God. Do not commit adultery, unless your wife really let herself go and there is this really hot thing at work. Do not steal, unless your company wouldn't even notice if you took a laptop from work to give to your kid. Honor the Sabbath day, except when your brother in law got these great tickets to a Blazer basketball game on Sunday.

Tithing is a commandment. It isn't just a nice idea for donating to a worthwhile cause.

Charity.. I'm not asking for your opinion, what you think, understand or imagine. Nor am I asking about the church bookkeeping methods.

I'm asking if there is anything written down by church leaders in terms of official doctrine or policy that states if someone donates their ten percent to the church but doesn't mark the "tithing" box, they can't be considered tithe payers. If so, could you please share this information.

Lets go back to the question once again...

If someone gets a personal revelation or receives inspiration after much fasting and prayer that they are to give their tithing TO THE CHURCH and mark the PEF, are they ineligible to receive a TR? (Officially speaking here).

Again....

You admit leaders make mistakes. You admit they are fallible. Yet if someone doesn't see eye-to-eye with a leader they have a problem? So In other words, leaders do NOT make mistakes and are INfallible? Or are leaders fallible but you must get a witness that their mistake is right? Or are you to follow even if your personal witness tells you they are making a mistake?Perhaps the HG inspired them to give the money to help those in need? Maybe it fit their personal sense of holiness to help others rather than build malls? Maybe they received a personal witness that Christ wants the money to be donated to those who are less fortunate?


~dancer~

Edit to fix quotes

[_the road to hana]

Or, lets say I buy a hamberger at McDonalds, and the owner of the McDonalds pays his employee who then uses a portion of his wages to buy porn. One then may say that I am paying for porn--though it would be a huge stretch, and taxing the bounds of credulity.

But, sometimes that kind of rhetorical stretch is what some people may think needed when criticizing the Church. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Not really. The Corporation of the President is a corporation, and as such, it operates under general business principles not completely unknown to the outside world. We know certain things about the history of the LDS Church, how offerings come into it, how it invests, and how it generates income. We even know the name of its investment firm (Ensign Peak Advisors).

By saying that "no tithing funds" are being used in the mall investment, the church is simply dealing in semantics. All money that originally comes into the church does so by donation, tithing or otherwise, and income is generated from the investment of those funds.

[Guest]

So, what I am getting from you, Charity, is that there is no room for personal revelation regarding tithing.

One the brethren have spoken, the thinking has been done.

Is this a correct assessment?

Hey Scott,

What do you think of the options I stated (particularly #4)?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

4. Self-direct one's 10% to charitable causes (in and out of the Church), and bring a record of those offerings to tithing settlement, and honestly and accurately state your belief that you are a full tithe payer, and do the same during temple recommend interviews.

This is what I proposed in the OP. It seems to me that the principle of tithing is to teach sacrifice. This is the spirit of the law. The letter of the law is that you pay 10% to the organization known as The Corporation of the President as tithing. Anything other than this will be an affront to God, keep you out of the temple and possibly strip you of all blessings associated with the temple.

To me, this seems like a perfectly legitimate choice. I am still following the spirit of the law, but I can choose who my donations help. Say my mother died of breast cancer. What is wrong if I choose to donate 10% of my income Old Testament breast cancer research as it might be something that is close to my heart?