What recourse do you have?

[_wenglund]

Oh, brother, Wade. I defy you to find "criticism" of the church in my post.

I defy me to find it as well--since it didn't even cross my mind (I wasn't thinking of your post when I mentioned the word "criticism").

Your analogies, by the way, don't work very well. They might work if your murderer and porn viewer claimed that they didn't use their wages to commit murder or view porn. But then the analogy wouldn't work at all.

I suppose the workability of my analogies depends upon what one perceives is being analogized. What I intended to anologize was, in principle, making strained connections using the flow of money. So, it works for me. I can respect, though, if others see it differently.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Pokatator]

Charity wrote:

And the mall is not being done with tithing funds.

How do you or anyone else really know this with closed books?

How many times do they have to tell you that?

You can tell me a million times, facts only once.

[_wenglund]

This is what I proposed in the OP. It seems to me that the principle of tithing is to teach sacrifice. This is the spirit of the law. The letter of the law is that you pay 10% to the organization known as The Corporation of the President as tithing. Anything other than this will be an affront to God, keep you out of the temple and possibly strip you of all blessings associated with the temple.

To me, this seems like a perfectly legitimate choice. I am still following the spirit of the law, but I can choose who my donations help. Say my mother died of breast cancer. What is wrong if I choose to donate 10% of my income Old Testament breast cancer research as it might be something that is close to my heart?

I, personally, like that way of thinking, and I even consider it as leaning somewhat more towards the higher law of charity and sacrifice (as intimated in certain covenants made in the temple). To me, it is not just about giving money, but donating ones time and talents and so forth in building the kingdom of God. And, what better way to build the kingdom than fulfilling the second great commandment (love they neighbor as theyself) through one's charitable offerings of all kinds and through various mediums.

Around the turn of the millenia, I donated an entire year of my life as a Vista Volunteer (the domestic version of the Peace Corp), helping the poor of Seattle gain access to vital technology in hopes of better enabling them to get jobs, feed and clothe their families, and become better connected to their families, communitees, and the world. I received a nominal stipend that bearly covered food, rent, and transportation. However, I viewed my donated time and talent as more than ample payment of tithes, and so when it came time for tithing settlement and my temple recommend interview, I had no qualms honestly declaring myself a full tithe payer. My bishop at the time had no problem with my declaration either--though, I can respect if others may view it differently (just as I respect how the Church leaders may choose to best utilize the tithing funds donated to the Church).

As I understand tithing settlement and temple recommend interviews, it is each individual, and not so much the bishop, who determines for themselves what to declare in terms of fulness of tithing and personal worthiness to attend the temple. The bishops role is to guide the self assessments and to hear the self-determined declarations. If so, then it doesn't matter what conclusions other members of the Church may come to, such is ultimately between each individual and God, with the bishop also acting as as a common judge in Isreal when needed.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Coggins7]

It didn't help that he was secretly committing adultery, however.

Funny how it always comes back to sin on the member's part, doesn't it?

And thus we come full circle yet again.

It is funny, as Mr. Gump said, how things work out sometimes, isn't it?

Ah yes...the tale of the innocent, sinless Apostate. Sugar and spice...

[_Coggins7]

Schmo, ol' man, you've hit the nail on the head.

Yes, but unfortunately, as with most critics here, the head was his own.

[_Jason Bourne]

I think it was significant that he could go pretty high up the chain to state his grievance. Personal sin is almost always the reason, isn't it? It doesn't have to be a moral sin.

Always. No. Sometimes? Yes. Sometime no.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi Scottie...

First, one can send a check directly to SLC and bypass the bishop. One does not need to disclose to the bishop how much money was spent so you could earmark the money for something like the PEF, or to fast offerings. The TR tithing question is a yes or no question and you can honestly answer yes without further disclosure.

In other words, so long as you are paying ten percent to the church, it counts and you can answer yes in the TRI. If I recall correctly there is no specific rule about the ten percent being required to actually go to a certain fund.

~dancer~

I think this is incorrect. Sure you can donate directly to SLC but when asked i=f you tithe it means 10% to TITHING not 5% to tithing, 3% to FO and 2% to PEF.

[_truth dancer]

Hey Jason,

I thinking if someone pays 10% of their income to the church directly to SLC, feels they are obeying the commandment to tithe, (even though they check off a different box), and says yes in the TRI, they are in good standing in the church no?

I only say this because I know of this situation...

Should these believing members, based on church doctrine be denied a TR? Are they breaking the commandment to tithe even though they are tithing 10% to the church?

Is there any specific rule that states they are not full tithe payers if they are giving ten percent of the increase to the church?

Wade writes,

As I understand tithing settlement and temple recommend interviews, it is each individual, and not so much the bishop, who determines for themselves what to declare in terms of fulness of tithing and personal worthiness to attend the temple. The bishops role is to guide the self assessments and to hear the self-determined declarations. If so, then it doesn't matter what conclusions other members of the Church may come to, such is ultimately between each individual and God, with the bishop also acting as as a common judge in Isreal when needed.

This is pretty much how I understand it as well... (Wade and I agree on something... WOW!) ;-)

Thanks for always helping us out Jason... :-)

~dancer~

[_charity]

And the mall is not being done with tithing funds. How many times do they have to tell you that?

Charity, once tithing funds come into the church, they are invested. It might be true that its investment income that is actually paying for the mall, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the original principal amount being invested didn't come at least in part from tithes.

I think you do not understand investments and investment income. I think once tithing funds come into the Church they are expended. Temples. Chapels. CES.

[_charity]

So, what I am getting from you, Charity, is that there is no room for personal revelation regarding tithing.

One the brethren have spoken, the thinking has been done.

Is this a correct assessment?

Once the LORD has spoken, the thinking has been done.