Boaz & Lidia wrote:I often wonder if outside leaders of the government have told them to not call their own bluff for fear of what it could do to not just the paltry economy of Utah but other states..
I agree with Shades on how dodgie Hinckley was with his public answers. PR spin doc CEO type perhaps, but not a prophet like those before him.
*sigh* It's been a long time since we had a real prophet. 1978 to be exact. I wonder how long it will be before we have another one?
*sigh* It's been a long time since we had a real prophet. 1978 to be exact. I wonder how long it will be before we have another one?
Probably when the the Twelve bring you to Salt Lake to vet the next President to make sure they get it right next time. They need you to bring Christ back into the Church Harmony.
Why don't you apply for the position? You may be our only hope (a question may arise as to just what authority you have to decide what is or is not doctrine, practice, and policy, but that can all be overcome through the sheer force of your spiritual depth and insight).
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.
I don't know whether Pres. Hinckley knew the church wasn't true or not, but I believe that part of his apparent humility rests with his knowing that something was missing.
He'd never seen God or Jesus. He'd never been visited by angels.
Here's a man who'd been an apostle for many decades. He'd had his calling and election made sure in a ceremony performed by another apostle however many decades ago. He succeeded to the presidency of the Church. He was hailed as the Prophet everywhere he went. Mormons fawned over him everywhere he went, sang "We Thank Thee Oh God For A Prophet". And yet... He'd never seen God or Jesus.
Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus, and apparently was getting heavenly visitations all the time, from angels or resurrected beings or whatever. Joseph Smith seemed to have visions, or to hear the voice of Jesus Christ, all the time. And yet... Gordon had never seen God or Jesus. He'd never heard the voice of Jesus, except perhaps in his heart. He never received a visitation by a resurrected being.
Surely he's heard the same FPRs that we have, about there being a sacred room in the SLC Temple where only the Savior and the Prophet are supposed to go, and that the room is well used. Well Gordon knew that any wear on the chairs in that room, or in the carpeting, was from himself and the janitorial staff. Jesus never sat there, never walked there, never spoke to him there.
His administration of the Church was enabled by his long experience with its institutions. He knew how it was supposed to run, and so he continued it as his predecessors had continued it before him. He lead the church through "inspiration", trusting that the thoughts that occurred to him on ways the church should be run were influenced by God through his Holy Spirit. Still, he had to feel less than comfortable, given the assumptions we all grew up with that the apostles and prophets of our church saw God and Jesus, with the fact that he never had.
Perhaps God was testing him. Someday Jesus would appear to him and his beloved wife and seal them up God and Goddess personally, as the Second Comforter. Surely it would happen someday, as it's been said has happened to others in the church. Yet one day a couple of years ago his beloved wife died, unblessed by the personal ministration of the Savior. What a trial of his faith. Perhaps he accepted that Jesus would never appear to him as a trial that he had to pass, a cross that was his to bear, to prove out his faith.
I think that was a great motivator to President Hinckley. I think he was as humble as he was because he felt the weight of the mantle, and the weight of expectations by so many members that he would have experienced things that in fact he never did. He knew it, and it weighed on him.
I've thought this for some time now. I believe that he believed it was true. It must be true. His worldview was formed over decades with the assumption, with the axiom, that the church was true. And yet as Apostle, and even as long-serving Prophet of the church, he never saw Jesus. I firmly believe that humbled him, yet he still ultimately believed it must be true.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Scottie wrote:Seth, did he claim he never saw Jesus?
When asked how he received revelation, he said it came through the still, small voice, and through impressions. I don't think he specifically denied having seen Jesus, but that's pretty close.
He was asked if he'd seen God once in one of the interviews, and dodged the question by saying something like that he'd felt his presence. An apologist might well claim that since he was talking about God and not Jesus, perhaps he'd still seen Jesus and just didn't volunteer that information. I'm sure many will assume he'd seen him. I assume he didn't. The church isn't actually true. Jesus Christ is dead and gone for about 2000 years now, and he's not coming back. Jesus couldn't have appeared to him.
But Pres. Hinckley was a humble man. I think what I wrote previously has something to do with that.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
I've heard apologists claim that speaking with Jesus is a very sacred thing, and to talk about it on national television would be casting pearls before swine.
I really do get sick of hearing that.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
Scottie wrote:I've heard apologists claim that speaking with Jesus is a very sacred thing, and to talk about it on national television would be casting pearls before swine.
I really do get sick of hearing that.
It doesn't seem to have stopped Joseph Smith.
Isn't it curious that the last LDS Prophet willing to talk about Heavenly visitations was also the last Prophet to realize they were made up?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
Scottie wrote:I've heard apologists claim that speaking with Jesus is a very sacred thing, and to talk about it on national television would be casting pearls before swine.
I really do get sick of hearing that.
Maybe Jesus makes them take a non-disclosure oath under penalty of disembowelment. It wouldn't exactly be unprecedented, you know.
Scottie wrote:I've heard apologists claim that speaking with Jesus is a very sacred thing, and to talk about it on national television would be casting pearls before swine.
I really do get sick of hearing that.
Maybe Jesus makes them take a non-disclosure oath under penalty of disembowelment. It wouldn't exactly be unprecedented, you know.
Yes, and we do know that Jesus has angels with flaming swords ready, willing and able to disembowel you should you spill the beans.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo