Who Will Be the NOOB in the twelve.

[_Ray A]

How many of the 12 are converts? Not BIC?

ALL of the orignal Twelve were converts. Joseph Smith was a convert. Nearly 200 years down the track, why would Mormon leaders chose a new convert over someone brought up in the faith? Even looking at this from a "business perspective", I don't see why a CEO would chose a messenger boy for general manager over someone who has been with the company for 40 years. Who should I nominate? Paul Hogan?

[_harmony]

How many of the 12 are converts? Not BIC?

ALL of the orignal Twelve were converts. Joseph Smith was a convert. Nearly 200 years down the track, why would Mormon leaders chose a new convert over someone brought up in the faith? Even looking at this from a "business perspective", I don't see why a CEO would chose a messenger boy for general manager over someone who has been with the company for 40 years. Who should I nominate? Paul Hogan?

It depends on what the criteria is for an apostle.

Humility. Testimony. Faith. Trustworthiness. Steadfastness. Kindness. Worthiness. Levelheadedness. Honesty. Integrity.

Those qualities aren't limited to just Mormon Royalty, Ray. Unfortunately it looks like all that's needed is a close relationship with someone else who's already in power. Those qualities mentioned above aren't even on the radar.

[_the road to hana]

How many of the 12 are converts? Not BIC?

ALL of the orignal Twelve were converts. Joseph Smith was a convert. Nearly 200 years down the track, why would Mormon leaders chose a new convert over someone brought up in the faith? Even looking at this from a "business perspective", I don't see why a CEO would chose a messenger boy for general manager over someone who has been with the company for 40 years. Who should I nominate? Paul Hogan?

It depends on what the criteria is for an apostle.

Humility. Testimony. Faith. Trustworthiness. Steadfastness. Kindness. Worthiness. Levelheadedness. Honesty. Integrity.

Those qualities aren't limited to just Mormon Royalty, Ray. Unfortunately it looks like all that's needed is a close relationship with someone else who's already in power. Those qualities mentioned above aren't even on the radar.

That's just windowdressing. It's a secret society, a fraternity and a corporate board.

[_Ray A]

Humility. Testimony. Faith. Trustworthiness. Steadfastness. Kindness. Worthiness. Levelheadedness. Honesty. Integrity.

Those qualities aren't limited to just Mormon Royalty, Ray. Unfortunately it looks like all that's needed is a close relationship with someone else who's already in power. Those qualities mentioned above aren't even on the radar.

Harm, they have a few problems on the local level, worldwide, because thay can't choose sixth generation Mormons. I don't think it matters how spiritual a bricklayer is, or, for that matter, a crazy taxi driver. I know this isn't quite in accord with the Bible idea of selecting fishermen (different times), but to be realistic, why would they choose a convert, of say, five years, or even ten years, over a faithful generational Mormon going back generations? Even using the "logic of Mammon" (which Jesus encouraged), common sense should tell them, and anyone else, that "tested people" from "tested faithful families", would be a better choice. Simple logic, which Joseph encouraged too. I think that both logic and inspiration is at work here.

What happened to George P. Lee? It makes sense to me that they would look (first) for men with more solid foundations. Ascending to the leadership of the Mormon Church is not a light matter, and I think the leaders consider all these factors. Who would you go into battle with? A sincere boy scout, or a tested war veteran?

[_the road to hana]

Humility. Testimony. Faith. Trustworthiness. Steadfastness. Kindness. Worthiness. Levelheadedness. Honesty. Integrity.

Those qualities aren't limited to just Mormon Royalty, Ray. Unfortunately it looks like all that's needed is a close relationship with someone else who's already in power. Those qualities mentioned above aren't even on the radar.

Harm, they have a few problems on the local level, worldwide, because thay can't choose sixth generation Mormons. I don't think it matters how spiritual a bricklayer is, or, for that matter, a crazy taxi driver. I know this isn't quite in accord with the Bible idea of selecting fishermen (different times), but to be realistic, why would they choose a convert, of say, five years, or even ten years, over a faithful generational Mormon going back generations? Even using the "logic of Mammon" (which Jesus encouraged), common sense should tell them, and anyone else, that "tested people" from "tested faithful families", would be a better choice. Simple logic, which Joseph encouraged too. I think that both logic and inspiration is at work here.

What happened to George P. Lee? It makes sense to me that they would look (first) for men with more solid foundations. Ascending to the leadership of the Mormon Church is not a light matter, and I think the leaders consider all these factors. Who would you go into battle with? A sincere boy scout, or a tested war veteran?

Bloodlines are important; why do you think they're focused on genealogy? Uchtdorf was chosen because he brought something to the table as a former executive at Lufthansa and Eastern European.

[_harmony]

Humility. Testimony. Faith. Trustworthiness. Steadfastness. Kindness. Worthiness. Levelheadedness. Honesty. Integrity.

Those qualities aren't limited to just Mormon Royalty, Ray. Unfortunately it looks like all that's needed is a close relationship with someone else who's already in power. Those qualities mentioned above aren't even on the radar.

Harm, they have a few problems on the local level, worldwide, because thay can't choose sixth generation Mormons. I don't think it matters how spiritual a bricklayer is, or, for that matter, a crazy taxi driver. I know this isn't quite in accord with the Bible idea of selecting fishermen (different times), but to be realistic, why would they choose a convert, of say, five years, or even ten years, over a faithful generational Mormon going back generations? Even using the "logic of Mammon" (which Jesus encouraged), common sense should tell them, and anyone else, that "tested people" from "tested faithful families", would be a better choice. Simple logic, which Joseph encouraged too. I think that both logic and inspiration is at work here.

What happened to George P. Lee? It makes sense to me that they would look (first) for men with more solid foundations. Ascending to the leadership of the Mormon Church is not a light matter, and I think the leaders consider all these factors. Who would you go into battle with? A sincere boy scout, or a tested war veteran?

I'm not talking about promoting a recent convert, Ray. I'm talking about finding someone who isn't in the good ol' boys club. Maybe someone who doesn't live in Utah. Someone who has been in trenches, out here in Outer Zion, who's lived in the mission field and knows what it's like to be a Mormon outside of Utah. There's lots and lots of faithful Saints who live outside of the Wasatch Front, but I bet they don't get a look. Why? Because they don't know how to play the game. Or else they play the game based on the gospel instead of the bottom line. And they couldn't care less about beautifying downtown SLC.

You're right, Ray. Those "solid foundations" have brought us billion dollar malls, a multiple million dollar conference center, and assorted other spiritual boondoggles. Bring 'em on! They know how to play the game!

[_Boaz & Lidia]

How many of the 12 are converts? Not BIC?

ALL of the orignal Twelve were converts. Joseph Smith was a convert. Nearly 200 years down the track, why would Mormon leaders chose a new convert over someone brought up in the faith? Even looking at this from a "business perspective", I don't see why a CEO would chose a messenger boy for general manager over someone who has been with the company for 40 years. Who should I nominate? Paul Hogan?

Really? And you are still an excommunicated member.

[_dartagnan]

Nearly 200 years down the track, why would Mormon leaders chose a new convert over someone brought up in the faith?

They wouldn't, because most converts eventually leave the faith. EVen the majority of the converts who were "witnesses" to the Book of Mormon. So why take a risk like that? It could destroy the Church if a future prophet said, "You know what none of this is true after all."

The Church invests much in conditioning its leaders to never stray. It fills their lives with so much ecclesiastical duty that there is hardly time for independent research or critical thinking. Especially, when all of that is considered to be toola of the devil's workshop.

[_Ray A]

Bloodlines are important; why do you think they're focused on genealogy? Uchtdorf was chosen because he brought something to the table as a former executive at Lufthansa and Eastern European.

And he was successful at Lufthansa only by luck. He had zero planning ability. Didn't know anything about success in the real world. But if he was spiritual, devoted, and a real organiser who could unite people, a bricklayer from Australia would have been a better choice.

The modern Church, my friend, requires some extraordinary capabilities. And the leaders choose who they think can handle this best. It's a combination. If they did otherwise, exmos would be wondering where their inspiration was in choosing a bricklayer over a tested veteran.

You see, hana, the real crux of this matter is simple: No matter what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does, it can't win. As far as exmos are concerned: it's dead in the water. No matter what it does.

[_the road to hana]

Bloodlines are important; why do you think they're focused on genealogy? Uchtdorf was chosen because he brought something to the table as a former executive at Lufthansa and Eastern European.

And he was successful at Lufthansa only by luck. He had zero planning ability. Didn't know anything about success in the real world. But if he was spiritual, devoted, and a real organiser who could unite people, a bricklayer from Australia would have been a better choice.

The modern Church, my friend, requires some extraordinary capabilities. And the leaders choose who they think can handle this best. It's a combination. If they did otherwise, exmos would be wondering where their inspiration was in choosing a bricklayer over a tested veteran.

You see, hana, the real crux of this matter is simple: No matter what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does, it can't win. As far as exmos are concerned: it's dead in the water. No matter what it does.

You don't need to tell me about the good old boys system. I have family members who are very much part of it. There's a secret fraternal organization operating within a secret society, running a corporation, dressed up as a religion, and most of the members are none the wiser. That's it.