solomarineris wrote:Does that change the fact that Temples serve the Dead rather than Living? How many lives could be improved if that money were spent on living?
LDS temples are buildings that are indeed built for the living, dressed up as buildings that are built for (work for) the dead.
They are primarily for the fraternal and social exchange of the members and binding them to the organization with a sense of ownership and belonging.
Truth is, not even faithful and forthcoming Mormons really know what the net effect is of the rituals they perform for and on behalf of persons who are now dead, and even in their most sincere devout moments, would have to say they leave that up to the wisdom of God. But most of them at least hope that their devotion on behalf of their departed ancestors merits them a place in the kingdom.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
why me wrote: I would think that they would want TBM's to save time and be with their family more.
I guess I am blonde today. How would attending the temple save time and cause you to be with your family more? I know lots of elderly couples that spend hours every day in the temple. That's time spent in a big white sterile building instead of helping make cookies with the grandkids.
"I think one of the great mysteries of the gospel is that anyone still believes it." Sethbag, MADB, Feb 22 2008
why me wrote: I would think that they would want TBM's to save time and be with their family more.
I guess I am blonde today. How would attending the temple save time and cause you to be with your family more? I know lots of elderly couples that spend hours every day in the temple. That's time spent in a big white sterile building instead of helping make cookies with the grandkids.
I'm just guessing, but I imagine why me is suggesting that because (some) people don't have to make long journeys to attend a temple now, that puts them closer to their families.
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
solomarineris wrote:Yea... Does that change the fact that Temples serve the Dead rather than Living? How many lives could be improved if that money were spent on living?
You must remember that I believe that Temples have a real effect on the dead. Freeing people from the pain of hell and entrapment is pretty important to me.
I'm also not a believer that spending money on somebody's problems always improves their life.
"Money can't buy happiness"
"If money can't buy happiness at least it lets you be miserable in comfort."
I don't understand why God would want it this way. It doesn't make sense to me... let me explain.
He is all knowing, all powerful, and loving. Why in the world would he want to make it so that people couldn't reach the certain levels of heaven (for the record, I don't believe there are different levels of heaven, but for the sake of argument...) before getting temple work done (either by their own power when they were alive or by proxy after they are dead)? Seems to me that if God is the all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing being that I believe him to be, he could look at the soul of the person and make a decision then and there. Why is it that these ceremonies exist? It just doesn't add up to me... just my opinion.
Well put! I too have always been perplexed as to the need for redeeming the dead. Essentially, the Mormon church has assigned itself as the ceremonial bottle neck for all of mankind. How long have humans populated the earth? How long do spirits dwell in spirit prisons waiting for their genealogy to be uncovered? What percentage of the records we do work for are accurate? What percentage of humanity have unobtainable records?
I am uncomfortable assigning this whole mess to a supreme being.
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
I will try to explain to those of you who are confused about the purpose of temple work.
Jesus, Himself, said that baptism was necessary to enter the kingdom of God. And that authority is necessary to perform it. Marriage also was said by the Savior to be an ordinance which must be performed on earth.
This fact alone would mean that most people of the world would not qualify to enter the kingdom of God. LDS, alone among any Christian denomination, have accepted the knowledge of how to provide that ordinances for all this myraid people. It is by proxy work.
In the past, when temples were sparse, people might have the opportunity to go to a temple only once in their entire life. They would have their own endowments and sealings, and then perform as many ordinances as they could for family members in the limited time they could be there.
I have heard members who lived in Europe, when the only temple was in Switzerland, say that their family vacation would be to go to Switzerland, and for a week, do as much proxy work as they could.
When my husband and I moved to northern Oregon, the closest temple was Oakland. We had temple trips--get on a chartered bus, ride all night, do two sessions in the temple (this was with the longer presentation) and perhaps a few sealings, get back on the bus and ride all night to get home. We felt fortunate if we could go once a year. When the Seattle Temple was built, it was only 2 1/1 hours away. What a joy. Every other month or so. And then Portland. 25 minutes. We are there at least once a week, and often twice.
Do we know if the work we are doing by proxy is helping that person? Most of the time not. But there are those times when we are given to know that the work was accepted. It is indescribable.
Is it a social thing? Not in the sense that is meant. Do we enjoy the presence of others? Of course. But not in any way that is exclusive or a way to look down on others.
Wintersfootsteps wrote:I don't understand why God would want it this way. It doesn't make sense to me... let me explain.
He is all knowing, all powerful, and loving. Why in the world would he want to make it so that people couldn't reach the certain levels of heaven (for the record, I don't believe there are different levels of heaven, but for the sake of argument...) before getting temple work done (either by their own power when they were alive or by proxy after they are dead)? Seems to me that if God is the all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing being that I believe him to be, he could look at the soul of the person and make a decision then and there. Why is it that these ceremonies exist? It just doesn't add up to me... just my opinion.
I don't understand exactly why either. However God is God and he gets to make the rules.
My speculation though, I suspect that the use of covenants is an effective way to produce change within humans. It's also the way he chooses to apply the atonement which according to us (and all Christians) is vital. God doesn't make the choice regarding our fate. We do and until the Final Judgment we can still make choices that effect it.....whether we are living or dead.
Why require ordinances? I'm guessing humility is a big part of it but there's probably more.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Mercury wrote:How the hell do you know? The mechanism is so nebulous and unknown its a miracle the practice is not discarded from sheer bewilderment as to how it works.
I'm sure it makes sense to you but then again so does magic underwear and a Kolobian space-god.
I use these things called the Scriptures. You claim to have been a member so you might have heard of them. Then again, maybe not.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Wintersfootsteps wrote:I don't understand why God would want it this way. It doesn't make sense to me... let me explain.
He is all knowing, all powerful, and loving. Why in the world would he want to make it so that people couldn't reach the certain levels of heaven (for the record, I don't believe there are different levels of heaven, but for the sake of argument...) before getting temple work done (either by their own power when they were alive or by proxy after they are dead)? Seems to me that if God is the all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing being that I believe him to be, he could look at the soul of the person and make a decision then and there. Why is it that these ceremonies exist? It just doesn't add up to me... just my opinion.
I don't understand exactly why either. However God is God and he gets to make the rules.
My speculation though, I suspect that the use of covenants is an effective way to produce change within humans. It's also the way he chooses to apply the atonement which according to us (and all Christians) is vital. God doesn't make the choice regarding our fate. We do and until the Final Judgment we can still make choices that effect it.....whether we are living or dead.
Why require ordinances? I'm guessing humility is a big part of it but there's probably more.
Whoever establishes a religion gets to make the rules for God. This planet has seen its share of Gods, as well as rule sets that have been drawn up by man, on their behalf(Deity).
As far as change within humans, I believe that is more effectively accomplished in the present through humanitarian work. We get to see the results, and we cherish the improvements we have provided for our fellow man. We KNOW we have accomplished something good.
I don't expect to see same-sex marriage in Utah within my lifetime. - Scott Lloyd, Oct 23 2013
Maxrep wrote:Whoever establishes a religion gets to make the rules for God. This planet has seen its share of Gods, as well as rule sets that have been drawn up by man, on their behalf(Deity).
As far as change within humans, I believe that is more effectively accomplished in the present through humanitarian work. We get to see the results, and we cherish the improvements we have provided for our fellow man. We KNOW we have accomplished something good.
Unless of course the establisher actually is talking to God....
I think he is since he talks to me and told me so.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Mercury wrote:How the hell do you know? The mechanism is so nebulous and unknown its a miracle the practice is not discarded from sheer bewilderment as to how it works.
I'm sure it makes sense to you but then again so does magic underwear and a Kolobian space-god.
I use these things called the Scriptures. You claim to have been a member so you might have heard of them. Then again, maybe not.
So I guess if you lock two people in separate rooms with said scriptures and ask them to interpret certain passages you'd get the same answer then?
No, you would not. I am sure this does not phase you at all though, as consistency is irrelevant as long as you pray pay and obey.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning