A Personal Story of my Father's Temple Sealing

[_the road to hana]

But the Church does not initiate temple work.

I think you might want to reconsider that statement.

[_charity]

But the Church does not initiate temple work.

I think you might want to reconsider that statement.

Oops, hana. You are right. There are lists taken from vital records. I forgot about that. But those are LISTS. The Church didn't pick out winters's father. His siblings did that.

[_the road to hana]

Because some people initiated the work when they shouldn't have.

Really? And who are "some people?" Those "some people" repeated those ordinances after assuring survivors of Holocaust victims that the work had been "undone."

And let me assure you, there is no economic advantage to the Church or its members in doing temple work.

I think you might want to reconsider that statement, too.

Obviously, since you think it is all about tithing, dead people don't pay tithing.

No, but their descendants do.

This is the biggest no brainer in the history of organized religion. Members who attend temples are told they are redeeming their dead ancestors in doing so, and are put on a course of researching genealogy that is essentially endless in nature. It is a busy work that makes them feel purposeful. They voluntarily provide statistical information to an organization without being compensated for it in any sense other than one of enormous well being. Meanwhile, the hook of redeeming dead ancestors continues to bring more new members into the fold, continuing the endless busywork at temples and researching genealogies. That never ending stream of busywork generates an almost never ending stream of revenue.

[_Wintersfootsteps]

Because some people initiated the work when they shouldn't have. And let me assure you, there is no economic advantage to the Church or its members in doing temple work. Obviously, since you think it is all about tithing, dead people don't pay tithing.

There is no economic advantage to the church when people do temple work? The millions of Mormons paying 10% of their earnings in order to have that temple recommend is not an economic advantage? Billions of dollars go to the church in tithing. Billions. That is economic advantage. Emphasizing that you need to do this work for your relatives to "save" them keeps the money coming in.

Of course, they were taught that ordinances were important. They loved your father and they wanted him to be happy. I am sure they thought your father would have changed his mine when he got to the other side. Then he would have wanted his work done. Remember, proxy work does not obligate the person to do anything he/she doesn't want to do. If you father is still persisting in thinking that the Church is bunk, it won't make any difference what anyone on earth has done about it.

Good, then we agree that the church doesn't really give a flying flip about the choices people make regarding their religion once they die.

The Church has given you what you need. It is up to you to accept or reject. They don't have to do anything.

Oh, so I should just take everything they in, do what I am told, pay them money, and live a life that makes me insanely unhappy even though they have been proven wrong? Again, if you want me to believe something like magical powers of discernment and priesthood, it's up to you to prove it (by you, I mean the church). More people are starting to realize that thanks to DNA and the internet (thank God).

Patriarchal blessings are not horoscopes or pronouncements by fortune tellers. They are blessings promised to the individual conditional upon their own choices. They tell what CAN happen in the person's life. If the blessing given by a patriarch were to be absolute, then the person would not have their agency. A person can make choices which negates the blessings. Just as you could tell a person if they went to college and studied, they could become a medical doctor. Then they drop out, go to work at Wendy's, that didn't mean they lacked the ability. They lacked the will.

And the blessings are for the person's entire life, not just this mortal time.

Right. The priesthood holding patriarch was right and these people made the wrong decisions. Right. That's logical. You don't use logic much, do you?

Your mother was not allowed in, not because she wasn't a good person, but she could not demonstrate to the bishop that she carried those specific set of beliefs that all members must have to enter the temple. And your uncle should not have been allowed to, at that time. He had to have been deceitful in his temple recommend interview in order to do so.

I hope you uncle is really doing better.

I also hope that you do not become bitter over what was a very well intentioned action by your father's family. They had the best of intentions. They were doing what they thought was in his best interests.

Maybe the bishop knew he was, and maybe the bishop was inspired that he should be there. I don't know. You don't know. So you really can't say.[/quote]

Give me a break Charity. You are telling me that the bishop knew my uncle was lying about his lifestyle, and was inspired by God to let him in the temple anyway? Doesn't that go against everything the bishop is supposed to do? If this is the case, why have temple recommend interviews period? Just walk in the office and let Mr. Bishop judge you with his magical inspirational powers?

What was not in your father's best interest? He wasn't around to be offended. He is either dead and turning to dust with no afterlife, in which case it doesn't matter. Or he is in a better place which has nothing to do with LDS theology, in which case it is a moot point what anyone else on earth does, or he is in a better place which has everything to do with LDS theololgy and understands what is happening, whether he accepts it or not.

So how has your father been harmed?.

He was harmed because they didn't honor his wishes. You don't get that? It's pretty easy to understand. His wishes were ignored, not only by the family members, but by the church that taught them to ignore his wishes and do what the church says.

.

I think it is really difficult for many active Mormons to see how hurtful and offensive it can be, when they are so convinced that they are doing right.

It is not the father that is offended. It is the living who are offended, and they cannot pretend it is for the dead.

Why? It wouldn't bother me. The truth is the truth, and if their ordinances have no benefit, what is the big deal? If when I die, my Catholic friends want to light candles for me, that is okay by me. People have this idea that if a proxy baptism is done for someone this "forces" that person to be a Mormon. That is plain silly. What does it matter to anyone who doesn't believe what we believe?

It wouldn't matter if people didn't believe what you believe if you didn't do this work for them after they died. If you left them, their religion, and their wishes with them it would be different. The church doesn't really respect that. Holocaust survivors had to take the church to court over this, and the church promised to stop doing it. Why was that necessary? There is no respect there. None. They are so convinced they are right that they throw everything else out the window.

I often wonder what TBM's think when they realize it was all a lie... it must be horrible.

[_Sethbag]

I often wonder what TBM's think when they realize it was all a lie... it must be horrible.

Um, look around, there are quite a few of us who experienced precisely that. For some, it is truly horrible. I don't know if I'd describe my experience as horrible, but it hasn't exactly been a bed of roses, either.

[_the road to hana]

But the Church does not initiate temple work.

I think you might want to reconsider that statement.

Oops, hana. You are right. There are lists taken from vital records. I forgot about that. But those are LISTS. The Church didn't pick out winters's father. His siblings did that.

Yes, you're correct. But I'm glad you admitted that the church does, in fact, initiate temple work. Too many people have had proxy work done for them that no descendants or family members requested whatever.

[_charity]

And let me assure you, there is no economic advantage to the Church or its members in doing temple work.

I think you might want to reconsider that statement, too.

Obviously, since you think it is all about tithing, dead people don't pay tithing.

No, but their descendants do.

This is the biggest no brainer in the history of organized religion. Members who attend temples are told they are redeeming their dead ancestors in doing so, and are put on a course of researching genealogy that is essentially endless in nature. It is a busy work that makes them feel purposeful.

And just how does this generate extra income?

They voluntarily provide statistical information to an organization without being compensated for it in any sense other than one of enormous well being. [

So? I am an indexer. I've indexed almost 10,000 names without being compensated. I don't get an enormous sense of well being. But there is some satisfaction in knowing that at some future time some researcher, LDS or not, will be able to access a record with a digital search.

Meanwhile, the hook of redeeming dead ancestors continues to bring more new members into the fold, continuing the endless busywork at temples and researching genealogies. That never ending stream of busywork generates an almost never ending stream of revenue.

Please explain this. Nothing I do in temple work or genealogy brings me any money. And the money that goes out from the Church to support the Family History libraries and the temples must be enormous. And no body has to pay a penny to access any of the genealogical records. Which are used by millions of non-LDS who don't have to pay a penny.

Your idea about income generation is not logical.

[_the road to hana]

And let me assure you, there is no economic advantage to the Church or its members in doing temple work.

I think you might want to reconsider that statement, too.

Obviously, since you think it is all about tithing, dead people don't pay tithing.

No, but their descendants do.

This is the biggest no brainer in the history of organized religion. Members who attend temples are told they are redeeming their dead ancestors in doing so, and are put on a course of researching genealogy that is essentially endless in nature. It is a busy work that makes them feel purposeful.

And just how does this generate extra income?

They voluntarily provide statistical information to an organization without being compensated for it in any sense other than one of enormous well being. [

So? I am an indexer. I've indexed almost 10,000 names without being compensated. I don't get an enormous sense of well being. But there is some satisfaction in knowing that at some future time some researcher, LDS or not, will be able to access a record with a digital search.

Meanwhile, the hook of redeeming dead ancestors continues to bring more new members into the fold, continuing the endless busywork at temples and researching genealogies. That never ending stream of busywork generates an almost never ending stream of revenue.

Please explain this. Nothing I do in temple work or genealogy brings me any money. And the money that goes out from the Church to support the Family History libraries and the temples must be enormous. And no body has to pay a penny to access any of the genealogical records. Which are used by millions of non-LDS who don't have to pay a penny.

Your idea about income generation is not logical.

I'll try to explain this to you again.

The church is dependent on a steady stream of income which comes primarily from tithing.

The tithing comes from members.

In order to get more tithing, the church needs to constantly be getting new members.

In order to get new members, the church uses, as a hook (one of many) the concept of redemption of the dead, and eternal families.

I never suggested that you, as a member, or other volunteers or members, receive compensation for it. In fact, I suggested just the opposite. It only generates a sense of well being for the members themselves. For the church, it provides a source of income. Or at least, a hook to continue generating income.

You don't know whether when the church uses its own database of names and records for any other purpose that might be beneficial for others, including genetic research, they receive compensation in some form.

The concept of allowing non-members worldwide to access church records to do their own genealogy is also a no brainer, as in the end, it brings in more "business." The church offers free access to genealogical libraries and databases as something of a "loss leader," hoping to bring in not only more data, but in the end, more members, generating more income by way of tithes and offerings.

[_Who Knows]

The other way it generates revenue is by keeping you going to the temple. They have to give you something to do - something to go to the temple for. And what do you have to do to go to the temple? Hand over your cash.

It's brilliant.

[_charity]

I'll try to explain this to you again. The church is dependent on a steady stream of income which comes primarily from tithing. The tithing comes from members. In order to get more tithing, the church needs to constantly be getting new members. In order to get new members, the church uses, as a hook (one of many) the concept of redemption of the dead, and eternal families.

I never suggested that you, as a member, or other volunteers or members, receive compensation for it. In fact, I suggested just the opposite. It only generates a sense of well being for the members themselves. For the church, it provides a source of income. Or at least, a hook to continue generating income.

No one should join the Church based on any kind of intellectual satisfaction with an idea. The only reason anyone should join the Church is because they have a witness to the divinity of the Savior and the restoration of His Church. If what you say is correct, then certainly the "hook" of family togetherness should be countermanded by giving up 10% of your income, the dedication of time and other resources, the proscription on the carefree lifestyle, etc.

You don't know whether when the church uses its own database of names and records for any other purpose that might be beneficial for others, including genetic research, they receive compensation in some form.

What a concept! Sell your database of the names of dead people to telemarketers!

The concept of allowing non-members worldwide to access church records to do their own genealogy is also a no brainer, as in the end, it brings in more "business." The church offers free access to genealogical libraries and databases as something of a "loss leader," hoping to bring in not only more data, but in the end, more members, generating more income by way of tithes and offerings.

If you think that the number of people coming into the Church from the FHC and genealogical department generates more income than it uses up, you are sadly mistaken. And the cost of temples? I don't know anyone who would stop paying tithing if they could go to the temple without it!

You don't know much about the reason why LDS do genealogy and temple work.