A Personal Story of my Father's Temple Sealing

[_the road to hana]

I'll try to explain this to you again. The church is dependent on a steady stream of income which comes primarily from tithing. The tithing comes from members. In order to get more tithing, the church needs to constantly be getting new members. In order to get new members, the church uses, as a hook (one of many) the concept of redemption of the dead, and eternal families.

I never suggested that you, as a member, or other volunteers or members, receive compensation for it. In fact, I suggested just the opposite. It only generates a sense of well being for the members themselves. For the church, it provides a source of income. Or at least, a hook to continue generating income.

No one should join the Church based on any kind of intellectual satisfaction with an idea.

That's not intellectual; it's emotional. It's a direct appeal to emotion, and can be stated as a spiritual witness by the person who feels it as an emotional attraction.

The only reason anyone should join the Church is because they have a witness to the divinity of the Savior and the restoration of His Church.

Again, emotional. Some people do use appeals to reason in arguing for and on behalf of the LDS Church, so suggesting that intellect or reasoning have nothing to do with joining or choosing to stay a member of the church is somewhat flawed. It's all part of the mix.

If what you say is correct, then certainly the "hook" of family togetherness should be countermanded by giving up 10% of your income, the dedication of time and other resources, the proscription on the carefree lifestyle, etc.

Are you suggesting "Families are Forever" isn't a hook?

You don't know whether when the church uses its own database of names and records for any other purpose that might be beneficial for others, including genetic research, they receive compensation in some form.

What a concept! Sell your database of the names of dead people to telemarketers!

It's already known that the church provides access to the records for genetic research. The part you don't know is whether or not they receive compensation for any access from private concerns.

The concept of allowing non-members worldwide to access church records to do their own genealogy is also a no brainer, as in the end, it brings in more "business." The church offers free access to genealogical libraries and databases as something of a "loss leader," hoping to bring in not only more data, but in the end, more members, generating more income by way of tithes and offerings.

If you think that the number of people coming into the Church from the FHC and genealogical department generates more income than it uses up, you are sadly mistaken.

Really? Do you even have any idea how many new members join the church each year? And from that, how much tithing comes into the church each year?

And the cost of temples? I don't know anyone who would stop paying tithing if they could go to the temple without it!

I don't know too many people who would stop going to the country club if they could go without paying dues, either.

What do you think the chances are that the church would ever provide temples without an expectation of tithing income?

You don't know much about the reason why LDS do genealogy and temple work.

I know all about it. I know at least as much as you do about it, and possibly, even apparently, more. I know what the rank and file of LDS membership believes are the reasons for it, too.

[_JAK]

Wintersfootsteps,

This is a most poignant story.

The focus of your questions is here.
My question to you guys is this: How is it that my Mother, a complete saint (really... I am not just saying that), wasn't allowed in that temple, but my higher-than-a-kite uncle was? Why is it that my Uncle was deemed worthy, and my mother unworthy? Why does the church feel it has the right to judge people this way? Why is it that non-Mormon family members have to wait outside a temple while their loved one is getting married and people like my uncle (who has since received help for his problem and is doing much better) are allowed in?

In some religious organizations there is no respect for the mind of an individual. Such organizations are most judgmental and regard themselves with such superiority that they invade privacy even when they are clearly told by a person that he/she does not want this pressure and attention.

I regard it as unethical and even immoral. I haven’t read other responses but know from the length there are many.

The kind of thing you describe is clearly a power play with the intent to intimidate. Often it works. People find it easier to go along rather than assert their freedom and independence to make choices which they regard as best for them.

Your father sounds as if he was one true to himself and at the same time a kind and gentle man going his way.

The rigid structure which you describe is tantamount to shunning which is practiced in a number of religious groups today. It’s designed to pressure people, to make them feel guilty, and to make them very uncomfortable. It fits with NONE of the principles attributed to the teachings of Jesus as he urged both acceptance and forgiveness.

Leviticus 19:15 (New International Version)
15 " 'Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

Luke 6:37
[ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

In the many denominations, sects, and cults of Christianity today, these biblical scripts are frequently minimized.
In your story, it appears that these fundamental Christian tenants are being marginalized in favor of techniques of disrespect, judgment, and attempt to manipulate.

I think it’s wrong and is the antithesis of a mainstream Christian principle. It seems this is a most unfriendly place for you. I would find a kinder gentler religious group if I wanted to be connected with any religious group.

JAK

[_charity]

The only reason anyone should join the Church is because they have a witness to the divinity of the Savior and the restoration of His Church.

Again, emotional. Some people do use appeals to reason in arguing for and on behalf of the LDS Church, so suggesting that intellect or reasoning have nothing to do with joining or choosing to stay a member of the church is somewhat flawed. It's all part of the mix.

This is where people make a mistake out of ignorance. Testimony or spiritual witness is not an emotion. Study the psychology of emotion. You won't find it listed.

If what you say is correct, then certainly the "hook" of family togetherness should be countermanded by giving up 10% of your income, the dedication of time and other resources, the proscription on the carefree lifestyle, etc.

Are you suggesting "Families are Forever" isn't a hook?

It is a truth. If you want to say that truth is appealing, you can do that. A "hook" is a man made device. I realize we are poles apart on this issue, but that doesn't stop me from declaring the truth as I see it.

It's already known that the church provides access to the records for genetic researckh The part you don't know is whether or not they receive compensation for any access from private concerns.

I don't know that at all. The Church doesn't do any genetic testing through the Family HIstory Department. Could you please explain what you "know" about this to me?

Do you even have any idea how many new members join the church each year? And from that, how much tithing comes into the church each year?

Yes. About 270,000 a year. Considering that the majority of baptisms are in the less developed parts of the world, which require new chapels, temples, social service, etc. the Church isn't getting rich on new converts.

I don't know too many people who would stop going to the country club if they could go without paying dues, either.
What do you think the chances are that the church would ever provide temples without an expectation of tithing income?

Yea, I really enjoy the golf course at the temple, and that restaurant, bar and dining room with the Saturday night dances is just super. Oh, yea, and the parking valets. Yep. Really great.

Oh, and yes the Church has a history of building temples without expectation of tithing income. If you know the history of the Nauvoo Temple, you know that after the death of Joseph Smith, the Saints were in dire need, poor, being harrassed by mobs, and they knew they were being driven out. They still continued on to finish the temple before they were driven out.

You don't know much about the reason why LDS do genealogy and temple work.

I know all about it. I know at least as much as you do about it, and possibly, even apparently, more. I know what the rank and file of LDS membership believes are the reasons for it, too.

The only problem here is, what you think you know is not correct.

[_the road to hana]

The only reason anyone should join the Church is because they have a witness to the divinity of the Savior and the restoration of His Church.

Again, emotional. Some people do use appeals to reason in arguing for and on behalf of the LDS Church, so suggesting that intellect or reasoning have nothing to do with joining or choosing to stay a member of the church is somewhat flawed. It's all part of the mix.

This is where people make a mistake out of ignorance. Testimony or spiritual witness is not an emotion. Study the psychology of emotion. You won't find it listed.

Are you suggesting that people, including church members and prospective converts, don't feel good about the concepts of eternal families and redemption of the dead?

If what you say is correct, then certainly the "hook" of family togetherness should be countermanded by giving up 10% of your income, the dedication of time and other resources, the proscription on the carefree lifestyle, etc.

Are you suggesting "Families are Forever" isn't a hook?

It is a truth. If you want to say that truth is appealing, you can do that. A "hook" is a man made device. I realize we are poles apart on this issue, but that doesn't stop me from declaring the truth as I see it.

If someone in church leadership decides to use it as a missionary tool, it's a hook. If someone sat in a meeting sometime, somewhere, and decided to put out advertising for the church, or pamphlets, or missionary discussions, it's a hook. Calling it something else doesn't make it less of a hook.

It's already known that the church provides access to the records for genetic research. The part you don't know is whether or not they receive compensation for any access from private concerns.

I don't know that at all. The Church doesn't do any genetic testing through the Family HIstory Department. Could you please explain what you "know" about this to me?

Here's just one of the more recent examples, well known because it featured prominently in the news:

Relying on data from the Utah Population Database (UPDB), a genetics goldmine that combines Mormon genealogy records with vital statistics and cancer records, researchers were able to identify many of the Fry descendants. The UPDB has records on 6 million people dating back to those born in the 1700s — the most extensive genealogical resource in the world. "The only place comparable would be Iceland, but they only have some 250,000 people countrywide," says Geraldine Mineau, who oversees the database.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 85,00.html

Do you even have any idea how many new members join the church each year? And from that, how much tithing comes into the church each year?

Yes. About 270,000 a year. Considering that the majority of baptisms are in the less developed parts of the world, which require new chapels, temples, social service, etc. the Church isn't getting rich on new converts.

What's your best guess regarding tithing revenues per year coming in from new converts? Take a stab at it.

I don't know too many people who would stop going to the country club if they could go without paying dues, either.
What do you think the chances are that the church would ever provide temples without an expectation of tithing income?

Yea, I really enjoy the golf course at the temple, and that restaurant, bar and dining room with the Saturday night dances is just super. Oh, yea, and the parking valets. Yep. Really great.

The comparison trying to be made, which you apparently don't see, is that dropping a financial expectation for attendance at either would not prevent attendance.

You can mock all you want about LDS temples, but for many people, attending the temple might be the nicest building they'll be in in their life. The interiors will be finer than many members' homes, and while it might not be the local health spa, it will be for them an idyllic place of refuge that does provide for them a sense of belonging and pride.

Oh, and yes the Church has a history of building temples without expectation of tithing income. If you know the history of the Nauvoo Temple, you know that after the death of Joseph Smith, the Saints were in dire need, poor, being harrassed by mobs, and they knew they were being driven out. They still continued on to finish the temple before they were driven out.

If I know the history of it? A number of my ancestors sacrificed in the building of both the Nauvoo and Salt Lake Temples.

You don't know much about the reason why LDS do genealogy and temple work.

I know all about it. I know at least as much as you do about it, and possibly, even apparently, more. I know what the rank and file of LDS membership believes are the reasons for it, too.

The only problem here is, what you think you know is not correct.

Which of the following is not correct?

*LDS temple work is done ostensibly to provide ordinances for the living and the dead.

*LDS temple work for the living involves initiatory ordinances, endowments and sealings of spouses and family members. Certain other ordinances, including Second Anointings, take place on a limited basis inside LDS temples.

*LDS temple work for the dead involves baptisms, confirmations, initiatory ordinances, endowments and sealings of spouses and family members.

*LDS members do genealogy work in order to learn more about their ancestors and to obtain the names of those ancestors in order to facilitate that ordinances are performed in LDS temples on their behalf.

*LDS members are generally endowed with a sense of well being for accomplishing genealogical research and temple work for and on behalf of those who are dead.

*LDS members must meet a set of requirements to receive a current recommend to attend an LDS temple in order to perform work for the living and the dead. Included in those requirements is the payment of a full, faithful and honest tithe.

*LDS members who do not meet the requirements for current temple recommends are generally encouraged by other faithful members to do what they can in order to be worthy of holding a current temple recommend, including paying a full, faithful and honest tithe.

*New converts to the LDS Church cannot go through an LDS temple for their own endowments or to perform proxy work for the dead until a year after their baptism into the church (they can, however, do proxy baptisms for the dead before that time).

*LDS members believe that all those who have lived without benefit of hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ personally and being baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this life need to have their ordinances performed by proxy by those who are living.

*In order to get the names of all those who have lived, including those now dead, the LDS Church encourages its members to at minimum research their family histories for at least four generations, and do more if possible.

Please tell me, what of the above is incorrect, in your view?

[_JAK]

The only reason anyone should join the Church is because they have a witness to the divinity of the Savior and the restoration of His Church.

Again, emotional. Some people do use appeals to reason in arguing for and on behalf of the LDS Church, so suggesting that intellect or reasoning have nothing to do with joining or choosing to stay a member of the church is somewhat flawed. It's all part of the mix.

This is where people make a mistake out of ignorance. Testimony or spiritual witness is not an emotion. Study the psychology of emotion. You won't find it listed.

If what you say is correct, then certainly the "hook" of family togetherness should be countermanded by giving up 10% of your income, the dedication of time and other resources, the proscription on the carefree lifestyle, etc.

Are you suggesting "Families are Forever" isn't a hook?

It is a truth. If you want to say that truth is appealing, you can do that. A "hook" is a man made device. I realize we are poles apart on this issue, but that doesn't stop me from declaring the truth as I see it.

It's already known that the church provides access to the records for genetic researckh The part you don't know is whether or not they receive compensation for any access from private concerns.

I don't know that at all. The Church doesn't do any genetic testing through the Family HIstory Department. Could you please explain what you "know" about this to me?

Do you even have any idea how many new members join the church each year? And from that, how much tithing comes into the church each year?

Yes. About 270,000 a year. Considering that the majority of baptisms are in the less developed parts of the world, which require new chapels, temples, social service, etc. the Church isn't getting rich on new converts.

I don't know too many people who would stop going to the country club if they could go without paying dues, either.
What do you think the chances are that the church would ever provide temples without an expectation of tithing income?

Yea, I really enjoy the golf course at the temple, and that restaurant, bar and dining room with the Saturday night dances is just super. Oh, yea, and the parking valets. Yep. Really great.

Oh, and yes the Church has a history of building temples without expectation of tithing income. If you know the history of the Nauvoo Temple, you know that after the death of Joseph Smith, the Saints were in dire need, poor, being harrassed by mobs, and they knew they were being driven out. They still continued on to finish the temple before they were driven out.

You don't know much about the reason why LDS do genealogy and temple work.

I know all about it. I know at least as much as you do about it, and possibly, even apparently, more. I know what the rank and file of LDS membership believes are the reasons for it, too.

The only problem here is, what you think you know is not correct.

Charity:
This is where people make a mistake out of ignorance. Testimony or spiritual witness is not an emotion. Study the psychology of emotion. You won't find it listed.

JAK:
An absurd second sentence. Let’s see an academic distinction between “spiritual” and “emotion.” There is none. They are one and the same.

There is no evidence for spiritual anything, Charity. It’s a feeling whether religious or patriotic it’s emotion.

Charity:
It is a truth. If you want to say that truth is appealing, you can do that. A "hook" is a man made device. I realize we are poles apart on this issue, but that doesn't stop me from declaring the truth as I see it.

JAK:
More of Charity’s truth by assertion. It fails. It’s flawed and unreliable.

All religious pundits want “appealing” “truth.” Give us an example of your version of a truth that people don’t want. Of course to do this, you arrogantly must assume that YOU have that truth.

Religion is man made. There is not the slightest genuine evidence for any “device” that is not an invention of man in the context of your statement.

Charity: “…the truth as I see it.”

JAK:
That’s an admission that it is subjective. Who are YOU to declare that you have “the truth”? You’re on an ego trip here, Charity..


And this:
Charity: “The only problem here is, what you think you know is not correct.”

JAK:
You do love yourself! And of course, you, you, YOU know what is correct.


JAK

[Guest]

I don't know that at all. The Church doesn't do any genetic testing through the Family HIstory Department. Could you please explain what you "know" about this to me?

Here's just one of the more recent examples, well known because it featured prominently in the news:

Relying on data from the Utah Population Database (UPDB), a genetics goldmine that combines Mormon genealogy records with vital statistics and cancer records, researchers were able to identify many of the Fry descendants. The UPDB has records on 6 million people dating back to those born in the 1700s — the most extensive genealogical resource in the world. "The only place comparable would be Iceland, but they only have some 250,000 people countrywide," says Geraldine Mineau, who oversees the database.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 85,00.html

Never heard of them. And you are saying that the UPDB bought the Church records? Where is your evidence for any kind of payment by any organization to the Church for genealogical records?

Do you even have any idea how many new members join the church each year? And from that, how much tithing comes into the church each year?

Yes. About 270,000 a year. Considering that the majority of baptisms are in the less developed parts of the world, which require new chapels, temples, social service, etc. the Church isn't getting rich on new converts.

What's your best guess regarding tithing revenues per year coming in from new converts? Take a stab at it.

I did some math. $26 per convert. I can send you my math, but it is a little convoluted.

I don't know too many people who would stop going to the country club if they could go without paying dues, either.
What do you think the chances are that the church would ever provide temples without an expectation of tithing income?

Yea, I really enjoy the golf course at the temple, and that restaurant, bar and dining room with the Saturday night dances is just super. Oh, yea, and the parking valets. Yep. Really great.

The comparison trying to be made, which you apparently don't see, is that dropping a financial expectation for attendance at either would not prevent attendance. /quote]

I think you mean that dropping the financial expectation should be expected to increase attendance at the temple, not prevent it. But those who lack the dedication to tithe, would hardly have the dedication to spend a few hours a week in a place that didn't have golf courses, etc. That's the point you missed.

You can mock all you want about LDS temples, but for many people, attending the temple might be the nicest building they'll be in in their life. The interiors will be finer than many members' homes, and while it might not be the local health spa, it will be for them an idyllic place of refuge that does provide for them a sense of belonging and pride.

I was not mocking temples, but your comparison of them to country clubs.

Oh, and yes the Church has a history of building temples without expectation of tithing income. If you know the history of the Nauvoo Temple, you know that after the death of Joseph Smith, the Saints were in dire need, poor, being harrassed by mobs, and they knew they were being driven out. They still continued on to finish the temple before they were driven out.

If I know the history of it? A number of my ancestors sacrificed in the building of both the Nauvoo and Salt Lake Temples.

Then I am surprised that you belittle their sacrifice as you have done.

My responses in red to your statements.
*LDS temple work is done ostensibly to provide ordinances for the living and the dead.

Leave out the "ostensibly."

*LDS temple work for the living involves initiatory ordinances, endowments and sealings of spouses and family members. Certain other ordinances, including Second Anointings, take place on a limited basis inside LDS temples.
Right.

*LDS temple work for the dead involves baptisms, confirmations, initiatory ordinances, endowments and sealings of spouses and family members.
Right.

*LDS members do genealogy work in order to learn more about their ancestors and to obtain the names of those ancestors in order to facilitate that ordinances are performed in LDS temples on their behalf.
Right.

*LDS members are generally endowed with a sense of well being for accomplishing genealogical research and temple work for and on behalf of those who are dead.
You'd have to ask them. It is probably different for different people.

*LDS members must meet a set of requirements to receive a current recommend to attend an LDS temple in order to perform work for the living and the dead. Included in those requirements is the payment of a full, faithful and honest tithe.
That's one of a dozen.

*LDS members who do not meet the requirements for current temple recommends are generally encouraged by other faithful members to do what they can in order to be worthy of holding a current temple recommend, including paying a full, faithful and honest tithe.
Along with the dozen others. I don't know of a general "encouragement." Maybe family members, priesthood leads, but I don't know of any member who goes up to another and tries to encourage them to do what they can. . . ..

*New converts to the LDS Church cannot go through an LDS temple for their own endowments or to perform proxy work for the dead until a year after their baptism into the church (they can, however, do proxy baptisms for the dead before that time).
With your correction, that is right.

*LDS members believe that all those who have lived without benefit of hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ personally and being baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in this life need to have their ordinances performed by proxy by those who are living.
Generally correct. I don't think any member believes that everyone will accept it. We do it for everyone we know of, because we don't have the wisdom to know who accept and whodoesn't.

*In order to get the names of all those who have lived, including those now dead, the LDS Church encourages its members to at minimum research their family histories for at least four generations, and do more if possible.
Right.
Please tell me, what of the above is incorrect, in your view?

You can mouth it all. But you think that it is all a premeditated ploy to keep LDS in a sort of thralldom. That is what you don't understand.

[_Trinity]

The only problem here is, what you think you know is not correct.

Unbelievable.

[_msnobody]

In a way, baptism by proxy seems a bit like identity theft.

[_Mary]

So, I ask my husband...a never Mormon what he thinks of this...

It's wrong to baptise someone posthumously if it is against their wishes. The relatives/church were wrong to not respect a persons wishes. Simple as that. I agree with him. It's a no brainer, as the Americans would say.


The church proclaims 'choice' as Jesus' plan, yet gave this man none. It was HIS choice, rightly or wrongly
not to have his temple work done. His 'choice' (that great virtue) should have been respected.

Different perhaps, when no opinion was given, but when a choice is expressly made then that's a whole different ball game.

Charity stop obfuscating on this issue. :)

Mary

[_the road to hana]

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1705585,00.html

Never heard of them. And you are saying that the UPDB bought the Church records? Where is your evidence for any kind of payment by any organization to the Church for genealogical records?

I didn't suggest that either of us have any. I suggested that neither of us knows whether the church is compensated for access to records by other organizations, including for genetic research.

What's your best guess regarding tithing revenues per year coming in from new converts? Take a stab at it.

I did some math. $26 per convert. I can send you my math, but it is a little convoluted.

Given that in 1999 annual revenues for the church were estimated at $5.9 billion, with all but $600 million of this being tithing from members, I'd charitably say that your estimates are low, even accounting for converts in depressed areas.

Don't quit your day job and apply for a job in accounting at the Church Office Building. I know LDS teenagers in middle class families who pay more tithing than that in a year. Somewhere in the COB there's an employee reading your figures and having a good chuckle.

I think you mean that dropping the financial expectation should be expected to increase attendance at the temple, not prevent it. But those who lack the dedication to tithe, would hardly have the dedication to spend a few hours a week in a place that didn't have golf courses, etc. That's the point you missed.

Are you suggesting that church members wouldn't attend the temple unless they had to pay for it?

I was not mocking temples, but your comparison of them to country clubs.

The point seems to be lost on you. It's not only a private club, but a private club with worldwide exchange privileges. Once you're a dues paying member (tithepayer, with current recommend) your recommend gets you into any one of over a hundred temples worldwide. Your daughter or son is going to get married, and is also worthy for a recommend? Where do you have the wedding? At your local temple. (No, I'm not suggesting that the reception is held there, but the after ceremony photos certainly are, and there is a certain amount of pre- and post- ceremony socialization that takes place for those family, friends and witnesses attending). Wards go there in groups for temple days and temple nights. There are locker rooms for changing. There are supportive facilities (clothing rental, in some cases food services, and so on). Non-members cannot participate (in this case, not even as guests). The grounds are impeccable. The interiors suit the membership.

I'm not aware of any other current Christian denomination for which the comparison could be more apt, actually, particularly when it comes to having exclusive "houses of worship" rather than inclusive ones.

You think there needs to be an 18-hole golf course and valet parking for a club to be a private club, with attendance and benefits limited to members? That would be incorrect.

And yes, as I said before, for many members, it will be the nicest building they'll go in on a regular or even sporadic basis in their lifetimes, far nicer than their homes, and certainly far nicer than their local meetinghouses. They feel a sense of proprietary membership and fellowship.

Oh, and yes the Church has a history of building temples without expectation of tithing income. If you know the history of the Nauvoo Temple, you know that after the death of Joseph Smith, the Saints were in dire need, poor, being harrassed by mobs, and they knew they were being driven out. They still continued on to finish the temple before they were driven out.

If I know the history of it? A number of my ancestors sacrificed in the building of both the Nauvoo and Salt Lake Temples.

Then I am surprised that you belittle their sacrifice as you have done.

I have never belittled the sacrifice of any of my ancestors, be they Mormon or otherwise, not the Mormon pioneers who crossed the plains in hope of a better life, not the Protestant ancestors who crossed the seas in hope of a better life, not the Catholic ancestors who fought for their lives, not the Jewish ancestors who wandered in the desert, not the native and pagan ancestors who resisted conquest and oppression, and certainly not any of them who were disowned by family when they left one faith for another trusting the guidance of their own north star.

To suggest that I have belittled any of them, including my Nauvoo and Salt Lake ancestors, is without merit. I am as proud of that heritage and the sacrifice of those ancestors as I am the sacrifice all of them made collectively and individually to make possible my own existence today.