Article: "Mormon women emerging from shadows"

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_SatanWasSetUp
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Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

Runtu wrote:
charity wrote:A woman who doesn't want children shouldn't have them. A woman who is not suited to be a mother shouldn't have children.


I sometimes think you and I don't belong to the same church. Here's what Elder Scott said recently:

Obedience to the plan [of salvation] is a requisite for full happiness in this life and a continuation of eternal joy beyond the veil. Essential to His plan of happiness is agency—the right of personal choice. Also fundamental is the holy privilege of procreation to be exercised within the commitment of legal marriage. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. The family is ordained of God. As husband and wife, you have the responsibility to bear children and to nurture and train them spiritually, emotionally, and physically.


Yes, you have the choice, but marriage and procreation are "essential" and we have a "responsibility to bear children." Sure you can choose not to do so, but that of course is a violation of the plan of salvation. Maybe you'd like to clarify your remarks, as you seem to disagree with Elder Scott.


That was probably just Elder Scott's opinion. He spoke with a limited understanding. The fact is, we don't know what the Plan of Salvation is. That is some pretty deep doctrine that we don't know much about. People like Elder Scott are free to their opinions, but LDS should feel free to ignore those opinions and do what they think is best for them. I actually agree with Charity on this one. I agree with her anytime she says LDS should ignore the brethren.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
_SatanWasSetUp
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Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

Blixa wrote:
charity wrote:I think all women are basically suited to be mothers. But who knows what kinds of environmental things happened in early childhood. The Lord is going to know everything about that person. It may be that any woman who is really opposed to having children was in some way damaged and is not going to be accountable for that.


Are all men basically suited to be fathers? Are ones who don't desire this likely to have been "damaged in childhood?" Or can one understand that all people can make rational decisions about how and when they might participate in raising children--even women.


Charity is suffering from foot in mouth disease again. Women who are opposed to having children are damaged? Didn't she also say women who are promiscuous, which is more than one sex partner in their lifetime, were abused as children? Charity should stick to discussing Mormon doctrine, and stay away from wordly issues.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Runtu wrote:
charity wrote:Having children (supposing that it is possible to do so) is essential to exaltation. But if a woman doesn't like being around kids, she shouldn't have to be where that is what she would be doing for eternity. I don't think that would be heaven for her.


So, really, there is no place in the celestial kingdom for those who for whatever reason are not cut out for parenthood.


I don't understand. Would they be complaining that they can't have eternal parenthood without eternal parenthood?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

Blixa wrote:Are all men basically suited to be fathers? Are ones who don't desire this likely to have been "damaged in childhood?" Or can one understand that all people can make rational decisions about how and when they might participate in raising children--even women.


This is what is problematic in Mormonism. To "fill the measure of our creation," we are to enter into heterosexual marriage and procreate. Sexuality and the assumption that families will be constructed are hard-wired into Mormon theology:

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.

---

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.


These scriptures plainly tell us that if we do not marry in this life, we will be damned and cannot receive our exaltation. This is one of the reasons the church used to advise homosexuals to marry, and we know what kind of results that had. Some people are just not wired to enter into heterosexual marriage or parenthood. It is a gross distortion to claim that people who would not make good spouses or parents should simply choose not to be spouses and parents. It doesn't work that way in LDS theology.
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If you just talk, I find that your mouth comes out with stuff. -- Karl Pilkington
_SatanWasSetUp
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Post by _SatanWasSetUp »

Runtu wrote:These scriptures plainly tell us that if we do not marry in this life, we will be damned and cannot receive our exaltation.


I questioned a TBM about this damning of those who aren't married, especially when you consider people like Mother Theresa and others who spend their lives in service to others, but remain single. The TBM told me that being "damned" in this scripture isn't as bad as it sounds. If you don't get married you are damned like a dam stops water from flowing, your eternal progression is stopped, or "dammed." Of course, the spelling is different, but that's a minor nitpick to his overall theory.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"We of this Church do not rely on any man-made statement concerning the nature of Deity. Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith." - Gordon B. Hinckley

"It's wrong to criticize leaders of the Mormon Church even if the criticism is true." - Dallin H. Oaks
_Blixa
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Post by _Blixa »

ugh. That ridiculous "damning" is really "damming" argument is right up there with arguments about how its really "Bareing" your testimony. Both are made by tbms who can't read apparently.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Blixa wrote:
charity wrote:I think all women are basically suited to be mothers. But who knows what kinds of environmental things happened in early childhood. The Lord is going to know everything about that person. It may be that any woman who is really opposed to having children was in some way damaged and is not going to be accountable for that.


Are all men basically suited to be fathers? Are ones who don't desire this likely to have been "damaged in childhood?" Or can one understand that all people can make rational decisions about how and when they might participate in raising children--even women.


I think yes. And those who don't desire the responsibility of fatherhood had something happen to them in childhood, most likely.

I think all people are generally suited to be parents for two reasons--according to evolutionary theory those characteristics which perpetuate the race are the traits which continue on, (people rear children [not just produce children] because their parents did0 and secondly, we all have spirits which came from an environment where THE cultue was parenthood. To me that says heredity and environment.
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

charity wrote:I think yes. And those who don't desire the responsibility of fatherhood had something happen to them in childhood, most likely.


Like what?
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_charity
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Post by _charity »

Bond...James Bond wrote:
charity wrote:I think yes. And those who don't desire the responsibility of fatherhood had something happen to them in childhood, most likely.


Like what?


They had inept fathers or mothers who did not model appropriate parenting behavior. Parents could show little awareness for the joys of parenthood that the person grows up thinking parenting is no fun at all.
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

Runtu,
What about women who don't want children or are not suited to be mothers?


Those mansions are huge...

Image

1. vacuum cleaning
2. carpet steam cleaning
3. dusting/polishing
4. kitchen/bathroom/utility cleaning
5. window/balcony cleaning
6. dish washing/drying
7. laundry/ironing
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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