For Charity: about your Oija board before your conversion

[_charity]

Weren't you also a teenager when you joined the LDS Church?

19 1/2. That is a lot different than a 14-year-old.[/quote]

You were incapable of being deceived at that age?

I was deceived. I thought I was in contact with a previously living person. I had seen the movie "Houdini" and wondered if you could contact the spirits of the dead. I thought I had. But it felt creepy and I put the board away. I hadn't even had it out for several years before I joined the Church.

Do you think Satan was incapable of deceiving Joseph Smith? You? Anyone else?

I think Satan is capable of deceiving people. I think it is a lot less likely with some than others. Those who cultivate the Christ-like attributes, read the scriptures, pray, try to live a Christ-like life are much less likely than others. Those who cultivate hatred, chose self over service, disobey the commandments and law of God are more likely to be deceived.
In my opinion.

[_Mercury]

I was deceived. I thought I was in contact with a previously living person. I had seen the movie "Houdini" and wondered if you could contact the spirits of the dead. I thought I had. But it felt creepy and I put the board away. I hadn't even had it out for several years before I joined the Church.

At that age I knew that divination of any form was a crock. You obviously still believe divination is valid. Sigh.

[_Gazelam]

I was deceived. I thought I was in contact with a previously living person. I had seen the movie "Houdini" and wondered if you could contact the spirits of the dead. I thought I had. But it felt creepy and I put the board away. I hadn't even had it out for several years before I joined the Church.

At that age I knew that divination of any form was a crock. You obviously still believe divination is valid. Sigh.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[_Mercury]

I was deceived. I thought I was in contact with a previously living person. I had seen the movie "Houdini" and wondered if you could contact the spirits of the dead. I thought I had. But it felt creepy and I put the board away. I hadn't even had it out for several years before I joined the Church.

At that age I knew that divination of any form was a crock. You obviously still believe divination is valid. Sigh.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

I guess imagination can replace reason. OK, have at it. I think a dark age would give a good enema to our culture.

I'll defer to Jack on this one:

This town needs an enema.

[_It occurs to me . . .]

19 1/2. That is a lot different than a 14-year-old.

Which is almost exactly the age of Joseph Smith when he reportedly had his first vision.
But you're sure that he wasn't deceived? Anyway, why would it be easier for Satan to deceive teens than adults? For all you know you're stuck inside one huge deception! . . . . no, really, you are.

[_Sethbag]

Yes. Seerstones and the Urim and Thummim work on principles of faith. Satan can't duplicate that.

You are directly contradicted here by the Doctrine and Covenants. Read up section 28. Hiram Page had been giving revelations he'd received through his own seerstone.

Here's what the D&C has the Lord saying about this: "And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him;"

Apparently Satan was able to give revelations to Hiram Page through the seerstone. I'm curious how you react to that, in light of your theory that they only work through faith, which Satan cannot duplicate.

[_Runtu]

Yes. Seerstones and the Urim and Thummim work on principles of faith. Satan can't duplicate that.

You are directly contradicted here by the Doctrine and Covenants. Read up section 28. Hiram Page had been giving revelations he'd received through his own seerstone.

Here's what the D&C has the Lord saying about this: "And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me and that Satan deceiveth him;"

Apparently Satan was able to give revelations to Hiram Page through the seerstone. I'm curious how you react to that, in light of your theory that they only work through faith, which Satan cannot duplicate.

We also know that Satan answers prayers, and Joseph Smith said he even gives revelations.

[_Sethbag]

I'd like to know what Joseph Smith, and all the others who were using peepstones at the time, were having faith in, when they were out searching for buried treasure and the like.

Was it faith in Jesus Christ and Elohim that was required?

Or was it just faith that the darn rock would show them a vision?

Did the substance of their faith have to actually be correct, or was it more "the thought that counts"?

[_Runtu]

I'd like to know what Joseph Smith, and all the others who were using peepstones at the time, were having faith in, when they were out searching for buried treasure and the like.

Was it faith in Jesus Christ and Elohim that was required?

Or was it just faith that the darn rock would show them a vision?

Did the substance of their faith have to actually be correct, or was it more "the thought that counts"?

You know, I never thought of it that way. Does anyone suppose that Joseph thought that Heavenly Father was guiding him to the buried treasure? Did he ever tell anyone that God was involved in these endeavors?

[_beastie]

charity

I think Satan is capable of deceiving people. I think it is a lot less likely with some than others. Those who cultivate the Christ-like attributes, read the scriptures, pray, try to live a Christ-like life are much less likely than others. Those who cultivate hatred, chose self over service, disobey the commandments and law of God are more likely to be deceived.
In my opinion.

It amazes me you can make this statement without recognizing the problems it creates for your defense of Joseph Smith.

runtu

You know, I never thought of it that way. Does anyone suppose that Joseph thought that Heavenly Father was guiding him to the buried treasure? Did he ever tell anyone that God was involved in these endeavors?

According to Quinn's Magic World View, righteousness and God's inspiration was definitely a part of this folk-magic. Also, Joseph Smith later claimed that God was leading him to a hidden treasure in a house somewhere (in canada, If I recall correctly), so it makes sense that he thought God was involved in his buried treasure hunts. It's just unfortunate that God was less powerful than the skeery spirits who guard the treasure and made it slip down into the earth before Joseph and his comrades could get it.